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  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 30 weeks ago Page Alex R. Knight III
    The armed violence professional (POLICe, the enforcer of POLITical POLIcy) was one of the first "divisions of labor" of the agricultural city-State (POLIS, or Civilization.) Think about that next time some Austrian school of economic bloviation praises the wonders of city-Statism's (civilization's) "division of labor" (and hierarchy. *) As long as there are cities and city-people (POLI,) there is going to be aggression, and lots of it. The "voluntary city" is an oxymoron. Jefferson didn't know about Dunbar's Number ** -- the concept that explains the "behavior sink" *** of humans maladapted to mass societies beyond their neurobiological evolutionary limits -- yet he was a good observer, as follows: "When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe." ~Thomas Jefferson ________________ * Egalitarianism is an essential part of human nature; it is the very thing that led to our humanity... Thesis #11: Hierarchy is an unnecessary evil. by Jason Godesky | 21 October 2005 http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/ ** If the monkey scientists are monkey right, it’s physically impossible for this to be a number larger than 150. Most of us do not have room in our Monkeysphere for our friendly neighborhood Sanitation Worker. So, we don’t think of him as a person. We think of him The Thing That Makes The Trash Go Away. Here we see the essential problem with any large-scale society: we cannot conceive of so many people. It speaks to the very heart of Stalin’s cold truism: “One death is a tragedy, but a million deaths are a statistic.” Thus, for any society much larger than 150 people, we become neurologically incapable of maintaining an egalitarian society. Hierarchy becomes necessary, yet the human animal is very much adapted to egalitarianism–and in no way adapted to hierarchy. Cross-culturally, we all have some expectations rooted in that egalitarian heritage. We expect freedom, and we expect to be treated as a human being rather than a stereotype. We all feel some negative feeling of stress when these expectations are not met–as they invariably are not met in any large, HIERARCHICAL society. Thesis #7: Humans are best adapted to band life. by Jason Godesky | 22 September 2005 http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/ *** As the scientist observed, a social HIERARCHY developed... Plumbing the ‘Behavioral Sink’ Medical Historian Examines NIMH Experiments in Crowding http://nihrecord.od.nih.gov/newsletters/2008/07_25_2008/story1.htm
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "Simply show me a city-lized society with large permanent settlements of 5000+ which does not have State level politics." That would only make your case if what has not happened cannot happen. But that's clearly not true.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    I put it in quotes because what's in quotes is the gist of the false choice he presented as most people in this culture. But if you're offended by the quotes, then I'll apologize for them and consider them removed. OK? Do you call sex "work?" No? Why not? How about a stroll through the woods? No? Technically, in the physics sense it is work. Right? So quit playing word games. What is commonly called "work" is "working for the man" so you can make money so you can pay the rent-seekers just to eat and have shelter. So no, dolphins don't have to "go to work." Neither did humans in the Original Affluent Society. In fact, anthropologists have observed that hunter-gatherers only "work" (actively hunting or gathering) an average of 2 hours per day. But they also note that it isn't really "work" and the people don't view it as "work." It's play. "Play" or even "party atmosphere" is how anthropologists describe daily life in a Non-State tribal society. Even Thomas Paine noted in his Agrarian Justice pamphlet that "The Life of an Indian is a continual holiday." Huge difference from Office Space. And please, if you're going to parrot how "nasty and brutish" paleolithic life was, admit you're just repeating the city-Statist Hobbesian mythology, which most city-Statist Libertarians (including Rand) also purport as true. Archeology and anthropology have turned Hobbesian fallacy on its head. Regarding violence: there was indeed violence, but it was less. For paleolithic people, it was something that happened occasionally. For city-Statists, it's a nearly daily way of life. We know from archeological evidence when it increased too - domestication and agriculture. A couple of the essays I reference above address violence extensively, and cite scholarly literature.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    G'day WhiteIndian, So, my non-judgmental conclusion is, because you believe that "city-Statism" is an "inescapable prison sentence", you do, out of 'absolute necessity', of course, apparently "settle for make-believe". Based upon your reply, and because your self-made persona is "WhiteIndian", a few more questions now arise. Why did you change my "hunter-gatherer" to "gather/horticulturalist[1]"? Why not, as the vast majority of The People [Red Indians] once were, a "hunter-gatherer"? Are you a vegetarian or vegan? And, were not, and are not, horticulturists, i.e. "One[s] who [are] skilled in the art of cultivating gardens[2]," directly involved in the creation of your, seemingly, much hated "agricultural city-States"? ____________________________________________________________________________ [1] horticulturalist Definitions - Wiktionary - common misspelling of horticulturist. [2] Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language
  • Darkcrusade's picture
    Darkcrusade 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOo9bjLtL3Q&feature=player_embedded
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 4 years 30 weeks ago
    Never Volunteer
    Page Paul Hein
    G'day John, I hope to answer, here, three different questions you asked of me in two different places. Elsewhere you asked: "I think even committed statists would do well to evict the state from their marriages. What do you have in mind with individual secession?" It is one's "marriage" to the State that is the real "root" of the problem. As long as it can be presumed that one remains a consenting member of a man-made government, it has control over what that individual may legally do. Secession is defined in Black's 6th, at page 1351, as, "The act of withdrawing from membership in a group." Pretty succinct. So, like the members of the United States, in their collective capacity, did to King George, the individual manifestly rebuts the so-called "presumption in law", that (s)he is a citizen/subject, by formally "withdrawing from membership in [the] group". "I would suggest using the Declaration of Independence as a good place to start....just update the text with modern phrasing [and personalize it] and insert appropriate examples of tyrannical abuses. Whether or not an armed conflict would result, would depend on the players involved." ~ Tuppence He suggests this because for the agents of the UNITED STATES to even claim that it "legally" exists, they have to "legally recognize" their own so-called Declaration of Independence, which was a manifest notice of secession. You can view my version of it, if you like, by scrolling down the comments here. Keep in mind, as you read it, that notice to the agent is notice to the principal, and notice to the principal is notice to the agent. On this thread, you asked these two questions: "What is it precisely you would have me do? And can you clarify what you mean by member-only benefits?" First, the "you" was only figurative, since I don't presume to tell any one what (s)he should do. You wrote: "I do not consent to government. As a sovereign my word is the rebuttal." That is correct...as far as it goes. However, "actions speak louder than words", as you no doubt know. If you are still acting like a citizen/subject by asking permission from the government in the form of licenses and permits, etcetera, and by soliciting and/or accepting member-only benefits, then what you do speaks so loud they can't hear what you say, as Ralph Waldo Emerson is reputed to have 'said'. Que sentit commodum, sentire debet et onus. He who derives a benefit from a thing, ought to feel the disadvantages attending it. 2 Bouv. Inst. n. 1433. Care to guess what one of the main "disadvantages" is? Allegiance! And, allegiance is defined as, "Obligation of fidelity and obedience to government in consideration for protection [the primary benefit] that government gives." What are "member-only benefits"? These are the benefits and/or privileges, some of which are known as political/civil rights, that PERSONS are eligible for as members of the body politic, the political corporation. Generally, if not always, obtaining any of these will require the use of a membership card (a "legally recognized" ID, such as a Taxpayer Identification Number, a driver's license, STATE identification card, etc.) Just having one of these, by the way, is a benefit/privilege of membership. If you don't believe that, try not using any of them, ever again, and see what it's like to really be "sovereign".
  • B.R. Merrick's picture
    B.R. Merrick 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    I remember when I was more conservative-leaning and Levin would come on talk radio. He was constantly yelling at the callers, referring to them as morons. That's all his show is worth.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    G'day again WhiteIndian, Are you not presenting false quotes? At least I cannot find where Mark Davis, or anyone else on this page, used either of these two phrases, "work hard to produce" or "steal by political means". Dolphins, squirrels, crows do not "produce", in the sense of creating, (other than their "nests"), but they certainly must "work hard" at surviving. And, although they apparently do not use "political means", at least some of them do, in fact, "steal"; they steal each others "kill" or "gatherings", just as some of the, so-called, American Indians did.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Simply show me a city-lized society with large permanent settlements of 5000+ which does not have State level politics. Hint: there are none. It takes deliberate evasion of volumes of empirical evidence to gainsay the observation that agricultural-City-State (civilization) is an integrated cultural package. Not only is in clearly observable, we know why it developed and how, supported by multiple fields of study, including biological evolution, neurobiology, archeology, anthropology, ethnology, sociology, and history. Ayn Rand said to "check your premises." She should have taken her own advice; she was completely wrong on so much. But we've gained much empirical data in the last several decades about our long past, and it is even more culturally controversial than the theory of biological evolution, and for much the same reason; that is, the literal creationist myth and the "nasty-brutish-short" Hobbesian mythology— city-Statist apologetics—are proven false. Author Daniel Quinn calls it the "Great Remembering." If you're interested in freedom, it's time to do some inductive thinking from empirical evidence instead of deductive logic from faulty premises. _______________________ (1) The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race by Jared Diamond, UCLA School of Medicine http://www.mnforsustain.org/food_ag_worst_mistake_diamond_j.htm (2) Health and the Rise of Civilization by Mark Nathan Cohen Yale University Press http://www.primitivism.com/health-civilization.htm (3) Agriculture: Demon Engine of Civilization by John Zerzan http://rewild.info/anthropik/library/zerzan/demon-engine-of-civilization... (4) The Original Affluent Society by Marshall Sahlins University of Chicago http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm also see http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/220original.html (5) "War is a staple of civilization..." On the Origins of War by John Zerzan www.jesusradicals.com/wp-content/uploads/origins-of-war.pdf (6) The Final Empire: The Collapse of Civilization and the Seed of the Future by William H. Kötke http://www.rainbowbody.net/Finalempire/ (7) Hunter Gatherers And The Golden Age Of Man http://www.raw-food-health.net/HunterGatherers.html (8) The Thirty Theses Jason Godesky http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/ (9) What is Rhizome? Jeff Vail http://www.jeffvail.net/2007/01/what-is-rhizome.html (10) best videos/movies: (a) END:CIV Resist or Die http://endciv.com/ (b) What A Way to Go: Life at the End of Empire http://www.whatawaytogomovie.com/watch-the-movie/ (c) Yu Koyo Peya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2SRAe7z6iA
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "It is as contradictory to have a civilization without State as it is to have jet aircraft without jets." No, you can know a priori that a jet engine has jets, while you claim your justification is empirical.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    You're presenting a false choice. Dolphins, squirrels, crows, don't have to either "work hard to produce" or "steal by political means." And neither do humans. 8 million years of our specie thriving prove that much. Anthropologists now call pre-production society "The Original Affluent Society." The agricultural city-State (Civilization) is based on aggressively invading and forcing people to work by depriving them from the quite easy means of foraging for food.
  • Mark Davis's picture
    Mark Davis 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    There are two ways for a person to obtain what they want (and, obviously, need): work for it or take it. Trade is a sub-set of working for it because you need to have something to trade with first. The work for it method (economic means) creates the conditions and incentives for people to cooperate with each other on a voluntary basis. The take it method (political means) institutionalizes violence as its organizing principle. Civilization arises when a society creates the conditions necessary for that society to prosper. Historically, societies have been created by the first method and then commandeered by the second method. This does not mean that a society must always be consumed by a state, only that people who promote violence have thus far been able to enslave people who promote peace in the long run. Although most people prefer peace to violence, many still live in fear of violent people. Thus they succumb to strongmen-states as a demonstrable way to deal with perceived threats (often phantom threats); they sell their liberty for the false promise of security. As long as a majority of men remain cowards too afraid to take responsibility for their lives, the state will continue to enslave them. Those whom seek a peaceful society only need to empower enough men with the courage to stand on their own two feet to leave the violent state model of organizing society and be truly free. This is not a false hope because society would have never developed beyond a pack of animals without the human desire for peace with neighbors. Society evolving to the next level has taken a long time, but it will occur eventually. The internet reformation gives me hope that the people who wish to live together in peaceful cooperation will be able to defend themselves from the inherently corrupt, violent and immoral people who promote the state. It should be obvious to anybody who has "studied anthropology, archeology, history, ethnology, game theory and evolutionary biology" that the struggle for civilization has always been between those that take responsibility for their own lives seeking peaceful cooperation and those that want to take what they want with violence (includes voting).
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    No, nobody but a few survivors in the most marginal of land can live as a Non-State band or tribal gatherer/horticulturalist. The agricultural city-State is brutally invasive and occupational, and the occupation continues. I ask every day: Officer, am I free to gambol about plain and forest? Each day the answer is the same from the whole political spectrum—capitalism to communism—of the agricultural city-Statists: No! So the best I can do, for now, while inside the prison of civilization, is to unschool and rewild and survive the inescapable prison sentence of city-Statism.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    G'day WhiteIndian, You wrote: "I don't settle for make-believe." So, if you don't mind my asking a few questions, does this mean that you live the life of a hunter-gatherer? Are you a member of a tribe? And, do you use any "civilized tools" for hunting and/or gathering? I also wrote to give you my thanks, because of you, I was led to this. "In Indigenous societies, we are told that Natural Law is the highest law, higher than the laws made by nations, states, municipalities and the world bank. That one would do well to live in accordance with Natural Law, with those of our Mother [the Earth]." ~ Winona LaDuke, of the Mississippi Band of the Anishinaabe of the White Earth Reservation, Minnesota The Natural Law is the "Great Law of Peace".
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 30 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    The very definition—derived from empirical evidence—of the city-State (civilization) includes State level organization. It is as contradictory to have a civilization without State as it is to have jet aircraft without jets. The libertarian priestcraft and true believers must evade overwhelming empirical evidence—anthropology (especially the Original Affluent Society,) archeology, history, ethnology, game theory (especially the Prisoner's Dilemma,) evolutionary biology (especially Dunbar's Number and Biological Egalitarianism)—to claim it feasible to conjure a city-State without a State. An animated corpse is just as "possible" as a voluntary city; here will be no Zombie Savior. Libertarian economic theory is as much a false hope as the Rapture. If either were credible, I'd be a believer. We all seek to be somehow saved from the absolute catastrophe the agricultural city-State has made of Mother Earth and the lives of her many children.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    I don't see you making any case for the logical impossibility of this, you only argue that it hasn't happened. You've been given other examples of things that hadn't happened in human history and then happened. You seem to feel no need to address this. "Myself, I'd rather strike at the root of our human crisis, and that root isn't merely the State, but the indivisibly integrated cultural package of agricultural city-State (civilization) itself." I guess you will then.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Conjuring a voluntary city-State (civilization,) is like summoning an animated corpse. A non-State civilization (city-state) is as much a possibility as a Zombie. Both Communism and Libertarianism are Zombie religio-economic faiths, about as realistic as the other Zombie Savior. Myself, I'd rather strike at the root of our human crisis, and that root isn't merely the State, but the indivisibly integrated cultural package of agricultural city-State (civilization) itself. I don't settle for make-believe. I want to live in a real, proven, Non-State sociopolitical typology that was successful for hundreds of thousands of years before being aggressively annihilated by the coercive agricultural city-Statists. Officer, am I free to gambol about plain and forest?
  • tzo's picture
    tzo 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Yes, man will never fly and slavery will never be abolished.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    The voluntary city (or the voluntary state/government) hasn't happened, because they are contradictory. We haven't seen it. We won't see it. It has exactly the same chance of happening in the future -- zero -- as a benevolent communist mass society that successfully "withers away" the "state" aspect of the agricultural city-State (civilization.) As the anthropologist Stanley Diamond writes in the first sentence of his book In Search of the Primitive: A Critique of Civilization (1974,) "Civilization originates in conquest abroad and repression at home." A preponderance of archeological, anthropological, historical, and current empirical evidence supports his opening line.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    No. Plenty of voluntary agencies have existed, yet they weren't governments. You see voluntary associations all around you, some even devoted exclusively to the securing of rights. Why don't you recognize them as voluntary governments?
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    John, Could not the same be said of the concept of a "voluntary government"...which only protects its members individual natural rights? ..."It just hasn't happened yet."
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "The "voluntary city" is an oxymoron." It just hasn't happened yet. A few hundred years ago mass franchise democracy had never happened.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 4 years 31 weeks ago
    Never Volunteer
    Page Paul Hein
    "...all experience hath shown, that men are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by [withdrawing, i.e. seceding from the governments] to which they are accustomed." ~ Adapted from the American declaration of independence
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Licensing and government intervention have made New York land sell for as much as $1 million per acre of good soil. But you call that "private property." So why not call a medallion the same? It takes the same regulation of the agricultural city-State (civilization) that creates artificial borders to restrict the free movement about the land that Non-State societies in New York enjoyed for thousands of years. "Our system of private property in land forces landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not...Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of duress. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs." ~Dr. Ralph Borsodi, This Ugly Civilization (1929)
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Capitalists are as bureaucratic and regulatory as the Left. I call it the Mises-Marx axis of evil. The false dichotomy between socialism and capitalism is revealed in a single question: Officer, am I free to gambol* about plain and forest? Marx: Nyet! Mises: Nyet! Both are aggressive supporters of agricultural city-Statism (civilization.) Both require enforcing big-government regulation on the land that creates artificial "property" borders to restrict the free movement of free people to live a Non-State society lifeway. ____________________ * The concept of a Non-State society's foraging in the word "gambol" above is further explained in the following passage [my caps]: Why agriculture? In retrospect, it seems odd that it has taken archaeologists and paleontologists so long to begin answering this essential question of human history. What we are today—civilized, city-bound, overpopulated, literate, organized, wealthy, poor, diseased, conquered, and conquerors—is all rooted in the domestication of plants and animals. The advent of farming re-formed humanity. In fact, the question "Why agriculture?" is so vital, lies so close to the core of our being that it probably cannot be asked or answered with complete honesty. Better to settle for calming explanations of the sort Stephen Jay Gould calls "just-so stories." In this case, the core of such stories is the assumption that agriculture was better for us. Its surplus of food allowed the leisure and specialization that made civilization. Its bounty settled, refined, and educated us, freed us from the nasty, mean, brutish, and short existence that was the state of nature, freed us from hunting and gathering. Yet when we think about agriculture, and some people have thought intently about it, the pat story glosses over a fundamental point. This just-so story had to have sprung from the imagination of someone who never hoed a row of corn or rose with the sun for a lifetime of milking cows. GAMBOLING ABOUT PLAIN AND FOREST, hunting and living off the land is fun. Farming is not. That's all one needs to know to begin a rethinking of the issue. The fundamental question was properly phrased by Colin Tudge of the London School of Economics: “The real problem, then, is not to explain why some people were slow to adopt agriculture but why anybody took it up at all.” ~Richard Manning, Against the Grain, p.24
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    You may be partially aware of state aggression, but unaware, and perhaps in deliberate denial, that the state is an integral part of the agricultural city-State (civilization.) Civilization's foundation is aggression. The evidence lies in archeology and anthropology. Civilization (agricultural city-Statism) consistently invades and exterminates Non-State societies. The "voluntary city" is an oxymoron.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "Market capitalism isn't free. Agricultural city-States (civilization,) no matter the political flavor, are brutally aggressive. And you're in denial. Probably can't even recognize it, because you're so inured to the constant threat of State violence to protect "rights."" Nonsense, I am fully aware of state aggression which is why I'm a market anarchist.
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 4 years 31 weeks ago
    Sorry, Wendy and Lew
    Page John deLaubenfels
    Fifteen Minutes that Changed Libertarian Publishing.... http://mises.org/daily/4028 We already saw that the journal would have a unique citation format; that authors would love having their works online; that the time from submission to publication could be significantly lower than that of standard journals; that we had no need to have consecutive page numbering from article to article, or even a need to publish articles in artificial and pointless "issue" groupings; that each article would simply receive an article number and a volume number to uniquely identify it; that we would release not only a PDF but also a Word version, to make it easier for the ideas to be republished; and finally, that everything would be published open and free to the world under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License *(we would make it completely public domain if we were confident that would work; alas, copyright is sticky, and Creative Commons is the best we can do)*. Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ Copyright is sticky http://blog.mises.org/9240/copyright-is-very-sticky/ Search Mises: Kinsella Attribution:..... MisesWiki talk:Copyrights - Mises Wiki - Ludwig von Mises Institute May 11, 2011 ... Kinsella explains his position here, and the key quote is "the 'Attribution Share Alike' seeks to use one's copyright threat to force others ... wiki.mises.org wiki.mises.org/wiki/MisesWiki_talk:Copyrights clipped from Google - 11/2011 Recursive free information licenses - CC ShareAlike & Copyleft ... The Mises Institute uses Creative Commons Attribution, but without ShareAlike. .... However, as Kinsella points out, in our IP world, ... mises.org mises.org/Community/forums/t/24973.aspx clipped from Google - 11/2011 Copyright is very sticky! January 14, 2009 by Stephan Kinsella ... I tend to think the CC 3.0 Attribution license is the most libertarian–it only requires you to say who wrote it–but most ... blog.mises.org blog.mises.org/9240/copyright-is-very-sticky/ LabeledBlog clipped from Google - 11/2011 Fifteen Minutes that Changed Libertarian Publishing - Stephan ... Mises Daily: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 by Stephan Kinsella ... open and free to the world under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License (we would make ... mises.org mises.org/daily/4028 LabeledDaily Articles clipped from Google - 11/2011 Proeprty, Freedom, and Society: Essays in Honor of Hans-Hermann ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat ... Institute and published under the Creative Commons Attribution License 3.0. ... Jörg Guido Hülsmann and Stephan Kinsella. PART ONE: GRATO ANIMO ... mises.org mises.org/books/hulsmann-kinsella_property-freedom-society-2009.pdf clipped from Google - 11/2011 The Creator-Endorsed Mark as an Alternative to Copyright Jul 15, 2010 ... July 15, 2010 by Stephan Kinsella .... Volynets's “Authoright” idea (seem to be similar to Creative Commons-Attribution); Two by IP law professor Eric E. Johnson: ... blog.mises.org blog.mises.org/.../the-creator-endorsed-mark-as-an-alternative-to-copyright/ LabeledBlog clipped from Google - 11/2011 Intellectual Property Rights as Negative Servitudes Jun 23, 2011 ... Needless to say, Kinsella is not likely a fan or Reagan. ...... It has to do with the limited right of attribution to authors. ... Etc etc...
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    The point is that your market capitalism relies on heavy doses of aggression, just as socialism or communism relies on heavy doses of violence. Market capitalism isn't free. Agricultural city-States (civilization,) no matter the political flavor, are brutally aggressive. And you're in denial. Probably can't even recognize it, because you're so inured to the constant threat of State violence to protect "rights." Market capitalism is a city-Statist prison, just as is communism, that starves people into working. Both are literally a trail of tears. "Our system of private property in land forces landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not...Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of duress. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs." ~Dr. Ralph Borsodi Our Ugly Civilization [Simon & Schuster, NY (1929)] www.schoolofliving.org/Borsodi/This_Ugly_Civilization.pdf "You’ll know you’re among the people of your culture if the food is all owned, if it’s all under lock and key. But food was once no more owned than the air or the sunshine are owned. No other culture in history has ever put food under lock and key—and putting it there is the cornerstone of your economy, because if the food wasn’t under lock and key, who would work?...As long as the food remains under lock and key, the prison runs itself. The governing that you see is the prisoners governing themselves. They’re allowed to do that and live as they please within the prison." ~Daniel Quinn A Condensation of Daniel Quinn Thought http://www.lejournalmural.be/english-antilibrary/gorilla-1.html
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    The point is not that the states at the top of the list are free (they're not in any absolute sense), the point is that the more free market capitalism you have access to the better of you are and the more communism you have the worse off you are. It couldn't be more clear.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    If you want to equate efficient city-Statist aggression as freedom, have at it. I'm not swallowing the Heritage koolaid.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "From the evidence, one could just as easily conclude: "Strict Asian Lockdown culture clearly works." Or, "Empire clearly works." Or, "Economic Hitmen clearly work." Or, kowtowing to the only State in history to use Nuclear Weapons works." No, the economies with the most free economies are all near the top of the list and the ones with the least free economies are at the bottom.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    From the evidence, one could just as easily conclude: "Strict Asian Lockdown culture clearly works." Or, "Empire clearly works." Or, "Economic Hitmen clearly work." Or, kowtowing to the only State in history to use Nuclear Weapons works." Every one of those countries relies on massive amounts of violence to regulate and govern its society's massive amounts of rules. If they do have more freedom, it is only incremental, as one may have more freedom in one prison over another. Yes, some prisons are preferable over others; one would rather live in the Singapore city-State rather than in Pyongyang. Eglin Federal Prison Camp (Club Fed) is more free than San Quentin. But prisons are still prisons. Prisons are designed to restrict freedom. And the Agricultural city-State (civilization) is designed specifically to restrict freedom. Civilization violently invades and occupies Non-State societies and stops them from living in Non-State ways of living, i.e., foraging. The extreme aggression of civilization is documented throughout history.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    If anyone has empirical evidence of a city-dwelling human society (civilization) without State level politics, let me know.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    For all their faults, the economies so the countries at the top of the list are the most free in the world, allowing individuals the greatest latitude in disposing of their property, relative to other countries. More economic freedom will lead to even greater wealth. Freedom clearly works.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Accidental double post.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Nope, of course not.
  • tzo's picture
    tzo 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    So civilization is therefore dependent upon someone having a legal monopoly on force?
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    What, exactly, is "free" about Hong Kong or the USA or Europe? All are highly regulated societies with little freedom. Their wealth is gained by being aggressive players. Communism works even less well than capitalism, but the difference between the two political variations of city-Statism is between that of different prisons. Some prisons are preferable, yes. But they're still prisons. No agricultural city-State allows a Non-State society lifestyle. Marx and Mises both agreed on that.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    John T. Kennedy has it nailed, and Elman Service, a leading anthropologist, concurs, as follows: "A true state is distinguished from nonstate societies by the presence of political leaders who maintain a socially approved monopoly on the legal use of legitimate force. In contrast to the situation in bands, tribes, and chiefdoms, individuals in state societies are not permitted personal recourse to force to settle arguments or disputes. Only the government has the legal use of force at its disposal." ~NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES faculty.smu.edu/rkemper/cf_3333/Non_State_and_State_Societies.pdf [adapted from Elman R. Service (1975), Origins of the State and Civilization: The Process of Cultural Evolution. New York: Norton.] By the way, City-State = Civilization. "The word civilization comes from the Latin civilis, meaning civil, related to the Latin civis, meaning citizen, and civitas, meaning city or city-state." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization "Polis is often translated as city-state." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polis Ever wonder why a POLIs (city-state) has POLIce (city-state enforcers) and POLItics as standard POLIcy? Read Jefferson's quote again. City-Statism is the problem. Even deeper, agricultural city-Statism (civilization) is the problem. "Agriculture creates government." ~Richard Manning, Against the Grain, p.73
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago
    Sorry, Wendy and Lew
    Page John deLaubenfels
    "More specifically how does this truck with Kinsella an IP lawyer reserv[ing] IP "rights" he claims do not exist? If he wants an attribution perhaps he has good reason in a division of labor society remnant but embedded in a rat race? " Of course he has a good reason to want his writing attributed to him, but how can you claim rights that you say don't exist? "Do I tell the truth to the wolf at the door?" That was a bogus argument from Kinsella - that he was only notifying people of the law - since under the law he can easily waive all IP rights and put all his blogging in the public domain, which is where he claims is where it belongs.
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 4 years 31 weeks ago
    Sorry, Wendy and Lew
    Page John deLaubenfels
    Just perusing this thread I came across this "2) Just because there is *not government* enforced IP, does not mean there is no IP, that is an obvious fallacy. If you sign a contract with someone that if their copy of the software you gave them gets out, that they agree to pay a penalty of (for example) $50,000. I think that's pretty powerful incentive not to distribute your IP, and it doesn't need a state to do it". I am not having a problem with this are you? But I am not in this position. Personally I could care less. I would just find sellers that meet my needs. More specifically how does this truck with Kinsella an IP lawyer reserv[ing] IP "rights" he claims do not exist? If he wants an attribution perhaps he has good reason in a division of labor society remnant but embedded in a rat race? Again the context (and I have no idea what his client issues are!) *I live in an unfree world*. Do I tell the truth to the wolf at the door? Does that make me a liar? (Rhetorically speaking, not trying to put myself on the spot) LOL But regarding mind fucks which seems to come to mind--gee I wonder where from? And those too preoccupied with such as evidenced here in the blogsphere link you provided. It is entirely too hard to follow. Looks like those looking for flak and then getting plenty of it thrown around...The nym thing and who is what and so forth on another level is hilarious and true irony of not hacking at the root on a root site no less. http://web.archive.org/web/20070104221959/http://www.no-treason.com/arch... I think you stirred up a hornet's nest and lost credibility with Kinsella. Hmm.... Again perhaps you should pursue Part II of your questions. Which is a repeat of Part I with Kinsella's replies excerpted. Again what are you doing in that arena that's different if at all? And how is it working for you? I missed that in Part II and I am missing that here.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    BZZZZZT!!!! No, but thanks for playing! http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking As you can see from the list at the above link, the freest economies are the richest places in the world and you'll find they are generally the best places to live. On the other hand the last holdouts for communism are the poorest countries and the worst places in the world to live. That's excellent evidence that freer capitalism will lead to even better results.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago
    Sorry, Wendy and Lew
    Page John deLaubenfels
    "I read Kinsella's response and it seemed reasonable" How is it reasonable for an IP lawyer to reserve IP "rights" he claims do not exist? How is it reasonable for such a lawyer to threaten state violence on behalf of clients to secure rights he claims don't exist? "I am on several projects right now. But by all means press Kinsella if you are unsatisfied. I for one think you should [might want to] apply such questions to your own issues... such as your take on mini-archy." Kinsella is an an anarchist, as am I. He has not wanted converse with me since I caught him spamming my blog with anonymous (he thought) comments: http://web.archive.org/web/20070104221959/http://www.no-treason.com/arch...
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Essentially a government is a legal monopoly of force. Ditto for state.
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 4 years 31 weeks ago
    Sorry, Wendy and Lew
    Page John deLaubenfels
    Wonderful that Kinsella provides you some hints as to one size does not fit all in the remnants of a division of labor society... I read Kinsella's response and it seemed reasonable--In my words--Just because Ayn Rand did not pay for her taxi ride with silver coins does not mean she was a hippocrit. Kinsella is telling you there is a context and it is? The elephant in the room is the State... Well yeah!! Perhaps you should pursue Part II of your questions. Which is a repeat of Part I with Kinsella's replies excerpted. What are you doing in that arena that's different if at all? And how is it working for you? I missed that in Part II. I am on several projects right now. But by all means press Kinsella if you are unsatisfied. I for one think you should [might want to] apply such questions to your own issues... such as your take on mini-archy. I don't have the link handy. Perhaps I recollect incorrectly but I do not remember if you were merely playing devils advocate or embracing a defense for mini-archy but here is what I would add to that... Here an author who makes another appeal for Truth in Labeling (as called for in the original post of a discussion). And again, he is is NOT disputing your view of government, only what you are or appear to be (mis)calling it. Statism exists on a continuum ranging from TOTAL STATE (Totalitarianism) thru Communism, Fascism, Democracy, "Limited" Republic, mini-statism, micro-statism, nano-statism...but there is no MINARCHY. It is a made-up word that is devoid of sensible meaning! You either have NO government (Anarchy) or you have some government of varying degrees of severity as described above. The general usage of the made-up word "minarchy" refers to some unspecified, presumably small, amount of government. If it means "a few rulers", it means statism of some measure. You cannot have "degrees" of anarchy (min-archy, max-archy, total-archy) because you cannot have degrees of NO GOVERMENT!! Anarchy means NO RULERS! ZERO, ZIP ZILCH.There is no "mini-zero" or "minzero" and there cannot be such.
  • tzo's picture
    tzo 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Define "State." Define "government" (even though you did not use the term, And State = Civilization does not count.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    It's time to start judging the failure of "Free" Market Capitalism with the same honesty as we judge the failure of Socialism/Communism: WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get.) The people saying "but PURE® Capitalism actually requires...." sound just like the people saying "but TRUE™ Communism actually requires...." Both Capitalism and Communism have now failed, both because of internal contradictions, even though their True Believers think it's because they were implemented wrong or corrupted by economic-sinners.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Anybody who supports the agricultural city-State (civilization) is a Statist. The city and State are an indivisible whole cultural package, just like jet-airplane is an indivisible whole package. The jet noise isn't going to "wither away" and the airplane magically keep flying without jets roaring. People who say we must have jet aviation, but label people who accept the extreme noise as "jetists" are...well, how would you judge them?
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 4 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Mises and Rothbard are both as easily refutable as Marx or Keynes, which are just as screwed up. The Marx-Mises axis of religioeconomic dogma is pure statist. Yep, Mises is as statist as Marx, even though he thinks he's not. Civilization is the City-State. There's no city without a state. There's no state without a city. It's like a jet-airplane. There is no flying without the jet. Libertarians are ignorant enough of freshman-level anthropology to love jet-airplanes but complain about the oh-so-evil "jetist" noise. Thomas Jefferson had a clue when he said, "When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe." Civilization = City-State. Civilization is Statist. Civilization supporters are Statists. Marx and Mises are just two different variations of Statism, complaining about the "jetist" noise, and hoping it goes away - but we can still keep jetting somehow.