Recent comments

  • Glen Allport's picture
    Glen Allport 2 years 33 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    I'm undecided about whether our original copyright system was a reasonable approximation of what the market might have provided -- something along the lines of Creative Commons, perhaps -- but there's no doubt that the US copyright system has become a corporatist tool for plunder and repression (SOPA being only the most recent expression of this). You're certainly right that there is simply no way to avoid using government services -- can't breathe the air without do so, as the EPA is "in charge" of air quality. Not to mention roads, air traffic control, and so many other things.
  • tzo's picture
    tzo 2 years 33 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    "Nor was government involved in crushing Jobs' competition..." Well, copyright laws certainly helped Apple keep their niche sewn up tightly. Of course, he had no choice but to use those laws or others would have and excluded him from his own products. Just goes to show that no matter how much you may want to become wealthy through making exclusively voluntary exchanges in this society, you really can't do it.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 33 weeks ago Web link Mike Powers
    The fact that the government’s central bank has doubled the money supply over the past four years has nothing to do with prices going up, according to Chavez. “The law of supply and demand is a lie. These are not arbitrary measures. They are necessary.” Maybe Hugo needs to consult with Evangelina. "Evangelina Guerra, standing in line to get into the Dulcinea market in Caracas, said, “This is more regulation on top of regulation, and what we have is sky-high inflation and a lack of products.”" But, only if Evangelina understands that "inflation" is defined as "a persistent decline in the purchasing power of money, caused by an increase in available currency and credit beyond the proportion of available goods and services". (Source: 2010 American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Page Alex R. Knight III
    "I suggest you have a look at some of the iconography government is putting out there – symbolism, if you will. " Whoa, are these symbols being put out by government, or privately by some who work for government? Interesting either way, but I think the difference is significant.
  • Paul's picture
    Paul 2 years 34 weeks ago Page Paul Bonneau
    "When changing their mind clearly benefits them." Or when following the standard narrative clearly doesn't. Lots of people waking up these days. Hard to say what nudges them in the right direction - an irritation at being treated like a peon, or mere exposure to Ron Paul, or being out of a job, or being tased by a cop, or who knows what. Or a combination. Lots of people might even figure out the income tax really is crap after all, when they see their taxes going to crony bailouts and worthless wars. Benefit is not measured only in monetary terms, by the way. A person still has to be able to look at himself in the mirror every morning. Anyway this article is just a suggestion we not lose track of the main thing here. I don't think endless nattering over justifications for freedom is very helpful in the big picture.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Page Paul Bonneau
    "The question is, when do they give up on the propaganda that no longer even roughly appears to describe reality? When do they start getting angry? When do they decide not to put up with crap any more?" When changing their mind clearly benefits them. Often it doesn't. For instance: The income tax is crap, but I don't judge it will benefit me to stop paying. For the same reason there's not much incentive for someone who mistakenly thinks that the income tax isn't crap to even change their mind about it.
  • Paul's picture
    Paul 2 years 34 weeks ago Page Paul Bonneau
    For some reason Rob edited my comment about Will Grigg. It should read, "He really has a line on the criminal Justice System." I intentionally uncapitalized "criminal", turning what was part of the name of this system, into an adjective.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "The life of an Indian is a continual holiday, compared with the poor of Europe; and, on the other hand it appears to be abject when compared to the rich.* *(We should not, IMO, take lightly the fact that Thomas wrote "is" regarding the poor, and "appears to be" regarding the rich", for that which "appears to be", not always, "is" what it appears to be.) Civilization, therefore, or that which is so called, has operated two ways: to make one part of society more affluent, and the other more wretched, than would have been the lot of either in a natural state. It is always possible to go from the natural to the civilized state, but it is never possible to go from the civilized to the natural state. The reason is that man in a natural state, subsisting by hunting, requires ten times the quantity of land to range over to procure himself sustenance, than would support him in a civilized state, where the earth is cultivated. When, therefore, a country becomes populous by the additional aids of cultivation, art and science, there is a necessity of preserving things in that state; because without it there cannot be sustenance for more, perhaps, than a tenth part of its inhabitants." ~ Excerpted from Agrarian Justice, by Thomas Paine
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Michael Dunn
    "And historical events come with the inevitability of a law of nature." That's one statement upon which libertarians agree with Marx. The way to discover it is to mention the aggressive invasion and enforced occupation of Turtle Island by Western agricultural city-Statism (Civilization.) You may also observe self-styled "freedom" advocates flippantly excusing genocide with similar sentiments as follows: "[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, United States Military Academy, March 6, 1974 At least Ayn didn't try to whitewash the city-Statist aggression with the "homesteading" apology.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Page Alex R. Knight III
    Since you mentioned symbols — and related them to the professionally violent — I can't help but recall the following essay: "The need for symbols — and violence — did not always obtain, however." The Failure of Symbolic Thought by John Zerzan (from his book Running on Emptiness) http://www.primitivism.com/emptiness.htm
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Voluntary city-Statism (civilization) is about as likely as noiseless jets or animating a corpse, and there are clear reasons that neither can happen. A voluntary city might be a wonderful thing, but then noiseless jets or a Rising Savior would be wonderful things too, only if they were realistically possible. Some of your hope is based on your desire for freedom. I stand with you on that. And I compliment you on your being one of the few people in our culture to actually recognize the inherent violence of the city-Statist system, and speak out against it. But much of your hope for a voluntary civilization is based on false premises. The foremost false premise is the completely disproven Hobbesian mythology of "savages" (literally, dwellers of the silva, or forest.) All of the libertarian writers, including Rand, accept this distorted city-Statist apologetics that encourage submission to the agricultural-city-Statist system because of unwarranted fear of wilderness. The more accurate outlook of tribal Non-city-State life, based on empirical data, is "The Original Affluent Society."
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Michael Dunn
    ""Let’s look at why people produce things in a free market." Ok, let's do it. Men do not do repetitive work as a matter of choice. They do it out of dire necessity. They can be driven to this sort of work only if they are deprived of access to the land. Our system of private property in land forces landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not. Wherever access to land is free, men work only to provide what they actually need or desire. Wherever the white man has come in contact with savage cultures this fact becomes apparent. There is for savages in their native state no such sharp distinction between "work" and "not working" as clocks and factory whistles have accustomed the white man to accept. They cannot be made to work regularly at repetitive tasks in which they have no direct interest except by some sort of duress. Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of duress. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs. Only after he has made it impossible for them to support themselves as they desire, does be find it possible to drive them to work for him according to approved factory techniques, with sharp distinctions between the time devoted to productive labor and the time devoted to rest or play. ~Dr. Ralph Borsodi, This Ugly Civilization (1929) Looks to me like "free" market is about as free as "glorious" communism is glorious. In fact, both as city-Statist (civilization) political flavors are more similar than they are different. Both heavily regulate the Land with big-government artificial privation property borders that restrict the free movement of people to live a Non-State society lifeway of foraging. If they didn't cause such privation, nobody would do drudge work in horrible factories and offices, away from their families all day, for the hierarchical elite.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Page Alex R. Knight III
    The armed violence professional (POLICe, the enforcer of POLITical POLIcy) was one of the first "divisions of labor" of the agricultural city-State (POLIS, or Civilization.) Think about that next time some Austrian school of economic bloviation praises the wonders of city-Statism's (civilization's) "division of labor" (and hierarchy. *) As long as there are cities and city-people (POLI,) there is going to be aggression, and lots of it. The "voluntary city" is an oxymoron. Jefferson didn't know about Dunbar's Number ** -- the concept that explains the "behavior sink" *** of humans maladapted to mass societies beyond their neurobiological evolutionary limits -- yet he was a good observer, as follows: "When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe." ~Thomas Jefferson ________________ * Egalitarianism is an essential part of human nature; it is the very thing that led to our humanity... Thesis #11: Hierarchy is an unnecessary evil. by Jason Godesky | 21 October 2005 http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/ ** If the monkey scientists are monkey right, it’s physically impossible for this to be a number larger than 150. Most of us do not have room in our Monkeysphere for our friendly neighborhood Sanitation Worker. So, we don’t think of him as a person. We think of him The Thing That Makes The Trash Go Away. Here we see the essential problem with any large-scale society: we cannot conceive of so many people. It speaks to the very heart of Stalin’s cold truism: “One death is a tragedy, but a million deaths are a statistic.” Thus, for any society much larger than 150 people, we become neurologically incapable of maintaining an egalitarian society. Hierarchy becomes necessary, yet the human animal is very much adapted to egalitarianism–and in no way adapted to hierarchy. Cross-culturally, we all have some expectations rooted in that egalitarian heritage. We expect freedom, and we expect to be treated as a human being rather than a stereotype. We all feel some negative feeling of stress when these expectations are not met–as they invariably are not met in any large, HIERARCHICAL society. Thesis #7: Humans are best adapted to band life. by Jason Godesky | 22 September 2005 http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/ *** As the scientist observed, a social HIERARCHY developed... Plumbing the ‘Behavioral Sink’ Medical Historian Examines NIMH Experiments in Crowding http://nihrecord.od.nih.gov/newsletters/2008/07_25_2008/story1.htm
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "Simply show me a city-lized society with large permanent settlements of 5000+ which does not have State level politics." That would only make your case if what has not happened cannot happen. But that's clearly not true.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    I put it in quotes because what's in quotes is the gist of the false choice he presented as most people in this culture. But if you're offended by the quotes, then I'll apologize for them and consider them removed. OK? Do you call sex "work?" No? Why not? How about a stroll through the woods? No? Technically, in the physics sense it is work. Right? So quit playing word games. What is commonly called "work" is "working for the man" so you can make money so you can pay the rent-seekers just to eat and have shelter. So no, dolphins don't have to "go to work." Neither did humans in the Original Affluent Society. In fact, anthropologists have observed that hunter-gatherers only "work" (actively hunting or gathering) an average of 2 hours per day. But they also note that it isn't really "work" and the people don't view it as "work." It's play. "Play" or even "party atmosphere" is how anthropologists describe daily life in a Non-State tribal society. Even Thomas Paine noted in his Agrarian Justice pamphlet that "The Life of an Indian is a continual holiday." Huge difference from Office Space. And please, if you're going to parrot how "nasty and brutish" paleolithic life was, admit you're just repeating the city-Statist Hobbesian mythology, which most city-Statist Libertarians (including Rand) also purport as true. Archeology and anthropology have turned Hobbesian fallacy on its head. Regarding violence: there was indeed violence, but it was less. For paleolithic people, it was something that happened occasionally. For city-Statists, it's a nearly daily way of life. We know from archeological evidence when it increased too - domestication and agriculture. A couple of the essays I reference above address violence extensively, and cite scholarly literature.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    G'day WhiteIndian, So, my non-judgmental conclusion is, because you believe that "city-Statism" is an "inescapable prison sentence", you do, out of 'absolute necessity', of course, apparently "settle for make-believe". Based upon your reply, and because your self-made persona is "WhiteIndian", a few more questions now arise. Why did you change my "hunter-gatherer" to "gather/horticulturalist[1]"? Why not, as the vast majority of The People [Red Indians] once were, a "hunter-gatherer"? Are you a vegetarian or vegan? And, were not, and are not, horticulturists, i.e. "One[s] who [are] skilled in the art of cultivating gardens[2]," directly involved in the creation of your, seemingly, much hated "agricultural city-States"? ____________________________________________________________________________ [1] horticulturalist Definitions - Wiktionary - common misspelling of horticulturist. [2] Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language
  • Darkcrusade's picture
    Darkcrusade 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOo9bjLtL3Q&feature=player_embedded
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 34 weeks ago
    Never Volunteer
    Page Paul Hein
    G'day John, I hope to answer, here, three different questions you asked of me in two different places. Elsewhere you asked: "I think even committed statists would do well to evict the state from their marriages. What do you have in mind with individual secession?" It is one's "marriage" to the State that is the real "root" of the problem. As long as it can be presumed that one remains a consenting member of a man-made government, it has control over what that individual may legally do. Secession is defined in Black's 6th, at page 1351, as, "The act of withdrawing from membership in a group." Pretty succinct. So, like the members of the United States, in their collective capacity, did to King George, the individual manifestly rebuts the so-called "presumption in law", that (s)he is a citizen/subject, by formally "withdrawing from membership in [the] group". "I would suggest using the Declaration of Independence as a good place to start....just update the text with modern phrasing [and personalize it] and insert appropriate examples of tyrannical abuses. Whether or not an armed conflict would result, would depend on the players involved." ~ Tuppence He suggests this because for the agents of the UNITED STATES to even claim that it "legally" exists, they have to "legally recognize" their own so-called Declaration of Independence, which was a manifest notice of secession. You can view my version of it, if you like, by scrolling down the comments here. Keep in mind, as you read it, that notice to the agent is notice to the principal, and notice to the principal is notice to the agent. On this thread, you asked these two questions: "What is it precisely you would have me do? And can you clarify what you mean by member-only benefits?" First, the "you" was only figurative, since I don't presume to tell any one what (s)he should do. You wrote: "I do not consent to government. As a sovereign my word is the rebuttal." That is correct...as far as it goes. However, "actions speak louder than words", as you no doubt know. If you are still acting like a citizen/subject by asking permission from the government in the form of licenses and permits, etcetera, and by soliciting and/or accepting member-only benefits, then what you do speaks so loud they can't hear what you say, as Ralph Waldo Emerson is reputed to have 'said'. Que sentit commodum, sentire debet et onus. He who derives a benefit from a thing, ought to feel the disadvantages attending it. 2 Bouv. Inst. n. 1433. Care to guess what one of the main "disadvantages" is? Allegiance! And, allegiance is defined as, "Obligation of fidelity and obedience to government in consideration for protection [the primary benefit] that government gives." What are "member-only benefits"? These are the benefits and/or privileges, some of which are known as political/civil rights, that PERSONS are eligible for as members of the body politic, the political corporation. Generally, if not always, obtaining any of these will require the use of a membership card (a "legally recognized" ID, such as a Taxpayer Identification Number, a driver's license, STATE identification card, etc.) Just having one of these, by the way, is a benefit/privilege of membership. If you don't believe that, try not using any of them, ever again, and see what it's like to really be "sovereign".
  • B.R. Merrick's picture
    B.R. Merrick 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    I remember when I was more conservative-leaning and Levin would come on talk radio. He was constantly yelling at the callers, referring to them as morons. That's all his show is worth.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    G'day again WhiteIndian, Are you not presenting false quotes? At least I cannot find where Mark Davis, or anyone else on this page, used either of these two phrases, "work hard to produce" or "steal by political means". Dolphins, squirrels, crows do not "produce", in the sense of creating, (other than their "nests"), but they certainly must "work hard" at surviving. And, although they apparently do not use "political means", at least some of them do, in fact, "steal"; they steal each others "kill" or "gatherings", just as some of the, so-called, American Indians did.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Simply show me a city-lized society with large permanent settlements of 5000+ which does not have State level politics. Hint: there are none. It takes deliberate evasion of volumes of empirical evidence to gainsay the observation that agricultural-City-State (civilization) is an integrated cultural package. Not only is in clearly observable, we know why it developed and how, supported by multiple fields of study, including biological evolution, neurobiology, archeology, anthropology, ethnology, sociology, and history. Ayn Rand said to "check your premises." She should have taken her own advice; she was completely wrong on so much. But we've gained much empirical data in the last several decades about our long past, and it is even more culturally controversial than the theory of biological evolution, and for much the same reason; that is, the literal creationist myth and the "nasty-brutish-short" Hobbesian mythology— city-Statist apologetics—are proven false. Author Daniel Quinn calls it the "Great Remembering." If you're interested in freedom, it's time to do some inductive thinking from empirical evidence instead of deductive logic from faulty premises. _______________________ (1) The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race by Jared Diamond, UCLA School of Medicine http://www.mnforsustain.org/food_ag_worst_mistake_diamond_j.htm (2) Health and the Rise of Civilization by Mark Nathan Cohen Yale University Press http://www.primitivism.com/health-civilization.htm (3) Agriculture: Demon Engine of Civilization by John Zerzan http://rewild.info/anthropik/library/zerzan/demon-engine-of-civilization... (4) The Original Affluent Society by Marshall Sahlins University of Chicago http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm also see http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/220original.html (5) "War is a staple of civilization..." On the Origins of War by John Zerzan www.jesusradicals.com/wp-content/uploads/origins-of-war.pdf (6) The Final Empire: The Collapse of Civilization and the Seed of the Future by William H. Kötke http://www.rainbowbody.net/Finalempire/ (7) Hunter Gatherers And The Golden Age Of Man http://www.raw-food-health.net/HunterGatherers.html (8) The Thirty Theses Jason Godesky http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/ (9) What is Rhizome? Jeff Vail http://www.jeffvail.net/2007/01/what-is-rhizome.html (10) best videos/movies: (a) END:CIV Resist or Die http://endciv.com/ (b) What A Way to Go: Life at the End of Empire http://www.whatawaytogomovie.com/watch-the-movie/ (c) Yu Koyo Peya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2SRAe7z6iA
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "It is as contradictory to have a civilization without State as it is to have jet aircraft without jets." No, you can know a priori that a jet engine has jets, while you claim your justification is empirical.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    You're presenting a false choice. Dolphins, squirrels, crows, don't have to either "work hard to produce" or "steal by political means." And neither do humans. 8 million years of our specie thriving prove that much. Anthropologists now call pre-production society "The Original Affluent Society." The agricultural city-State (Civilization) is based on aggressively invading and forcing people to work by depriving them from the quite easy means of foraging for food.
  • Mark Davis's picture
    Mark Davis 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    There are two ways for a person to obtain what they want (and, obviously, need): work for it or take it. Trade is a sub-set of working for it because you need to have something to trade with first. The work for it method (economic means) creates the conditions and incentives for people to cooperate with each other on a voluntary basis. The take it method (political means) institutionalizes violence as its organizing principle. Civilization arises when a society creates the conditions necessary for that society to prosper. Historically, societies have been created by the first method and then commandeered by the second method. This does not mean that a society must always be consumed by a state, only that people who promote violence have thus far been able to enslave people who promote peace in the long run. Although most people prefer peace to violence, many still live in fear of violent people. Thus they succumb to strongmen-states as a demonstrable way to deal with perceived threats (often phantom threats); they sell their liberty for the false promise of security. As long as a majority of men remain cowards too afraid to take responsibility for their lives, the state will continue to enslave them. Those whom seek a peaceful society only need to empower enough men with the courage to stand on their own two feet to leave the violent state model of organizing society and be truly free. This is not a false hope because society would have never developed beyond a pack of animals without the human desire for peace with neighbors. Society evolving to the next level has taken a long time, but it will occur eventually. The internet reformation gives me hope that the people who wish to live together in peaceful cooperation will be able to defend themselves from the inherently corrupt, violent and immoral people who promote the state. It should be obvious to anybody who has "studied anthropology, archeology, history, ethnology, game theory and evolutionary biology" that the struggle for civilization has always been between those that take responsibility for their own lives seeking peaceful cooperation and those that want to take what they want with violence (includes voting).
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    No, nobody but a few survivors in the most marginal of land can live as a Non-State band or tribal gatherer/horticulturalist. The agricultural city-State is brutally invasive and occupational, and the occupation continues. I ask every day: Officer, am I free to gambol about plain and forest? Each day the answer is the same from the whole political spectrum—capitalism to communism—of the agricultural city-Statists: No! So the best I can do, for now, while inside the prison of civilization, is to unschool and rewild and survive the inescapable prison sentence of city-Statism.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    G'day WhiteIndian, You wrote: "I don't settle for make-believe." So, if you don't mind my asking a few questions, does this mean that you live the life of a hunter-gatherer? Are you a member of a tribe? And, do you use any "civilized tools" for hunting and/or gathering? I also wrote to give you my thanks, because of you, I was led to this. "In Indigenous societies, we are told that Natural Law is the highest law, higher than the laws made by nations, states, municipalities and the world bank. That one would do well to live in accordance with Natural Law, with those of our Mother [the Earth]." ~ Winona LaDuke, of the Mississippi Band of the Anishinaabe of the White Earth Reservation, Minnesota The Natural Law is the "Great Law of Peace".
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    The very definition—derived from empirical evidence—of the city-State (civilization) includes State level organization. It is as contradictory to have a civilization without State as it is to have jet aircraft without jets. The libertarian priestcraft and true believers must evade overwhelming empirical evidence—anthropology (especially the Original Affluent Society,) archeology, history, ethnology, game theory (especially the Prisoner's Dilemma,) evolutionary biology (especially Dunbar's Number and Biological Egalitarianism)—to claim it feasible to conjure a city-State without a State. An animated corpse is just as "possible" as a voluntary city; here will be no Zombie Savior. Libertarian economic theory is as much a false hope as the Rapture. If either were credible, I'd be a believer. We all seek to be somehow saved from the absolute catastrophe the agricultural city-State has made of Mother Earth and the lives of her many children.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    I don't see you making any case for the logical impossibility of this, you only argue that it hasn't happened. You've been given other examples of things that hadn't happened in human history and then happened. You seem to feel no need to address this. "Myself, I'd rather strike at the root of our human crisis, and that root isn't merely the State, but the indivisibly integrated cultural package of agricultural city-State (civilization) itself." I guess you will then.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Conjuring a voluntary city-State (civilization,) is like summoning an animated corpse. A non-State civilization (city-state) is as much a possibility as a Zombie. Both Communism and Libertarianism are Zombie religio-economic faiths, about as realistic as the other Zombie Savior. Myself, I'd rather strike at the root of our human crisis, and that root isn't merely the State, but the indivisibly integrated cultural package of agricultural city-State (civilization) itself. I don't settle for make-believe. I want to live in a real, proven, Non-State sociopolitical typology that was successful for hundreds of thousands of years before being aggressively annihilated by the coercive agricultural city-Statists. Officer, am I free to gambol about plain and forest?
  • tzo's picture
    tzo 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Yes, man will never fly and slavery will never be abolished.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    The voluntary city (or the voluntary state/government) hasn't happened, because they are contradictory. We haven't seen it. We won't see it. It has exactly the same chance of happening in the future -- zero -- as a benevolent communist mass society that successfully "withers away" the "state" aspect of the agricultural city-State (civilization.) As the anthropologist Stanley Diamond writes in the first sentence of his book In Search of the Primitive: A Critique of Civilization (1974,) "Civilization originates in conquest abroad and repression at home." A preponderance of archeological, anthropological, historical, and current empirical evidence supports his opening line.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    No. Plenty of voluntary agencies have existed, yet they weren't governments. You see voluntary associations all around you, some even devoted exclusively to the securing of rights. Why don't you recognize them as voluntary governments?
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    John, Could not the same be said of the concept of a "voluntary government"...which only protects its members individual natural rights? ..."It just hasn't happened yet."
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "The "voluntary city" is an oxymoron." It just hasn't happened yet. A few hundred years ago mass franchise democracy had never happened.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 34 weeks ago
    Never Volunteer
    Page Paul Hein
    "...all experience hath shown, that men are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by [withdrawing, i.e. seceding from the governments] to which they are accustomed." ~ Adapted from the American declaration of independence
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Licensing and government intervention have made New York land sell for as much as $1 million per acre of good soil. But you call that "private property." So why not call a medallion the same? It takes the same regulation of the agricultural city-State (civilization) that creates artificial borders to restrict the free movement about the land that Non-State societies in New York enjoyed for thousands of years. "Our system of private property in land forces landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not...Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of duress. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs." ~Dr. Ralph Borsodi, This Ugly Civilization (1929)
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Capitalists are as bureaucratic and regulatory as the Left. I call it the Mises-Marx axis of evil. The false dichotomy between socialism and capitalism is revealed in a single question: Officer, am I free to gambol* about plain and forest? Marx: Nyet! Mises: Nyet! Both are aggressive supporters of agricultural city-Statism (civilization.) Both require enforcing big-government regulation on the land that creates artificial "property" borders to restrict the free movement of free people to live a Non-State society lifeway. ____________________ * The concept of a Non-State society's foraging in the word "gambol" above is further explained in the following passage [my caps]: Why agriculture? In retrospect, it seems odd that it has taken archaeologists and paleontologists so long to begin answering this essential question of human history. What we are today—civilized, city-bound, overpopulated, literate, organized, wealthy, poor, diseased, conquered, and conquerors—is all rooted in the domestication of plants and animals. The advent of farming re-formed humanity. In fact, the question "Why agriculture?" is so vital, lies so close to the core of our being that it probably cannot be asked or answered with complete honesty. Better to settle for calming explanations of the sort Stephen Jay Gould calls "just-so stories." In this case, the core of such stories is the assumption that agriculture was better for us. Its surplus of food allowed the leisure and specialization that made civilization. Its bounty settled, refined, and educated us, freed us from the nasty, mean, brutish, and short existence that was the state of nature, freed us from hunting and gathering. Yet when we think about agriculture, and some people have thought intently about it, the pat story glosses over a fundamental point. This just-so story had to have sprung from the imagination of someone who never hoed a row of corn or rose with the sun for a lifetime of milking cows. GAMBOLING ABOUT PLAIN AND FOREST, hunting and living off the land is fun. Farming is not. That's all one needs to know to begin a rethinking of the issue. The fundamental question was properly phrased by Colin Tudge of the London School of Economics: “The real problem, then, is not to explain why some people were slow to adopt agriculture but why anybody took it up at all.” ~Richard Manning, Against the Grain, p.24
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    You may be partially aware of state aggression, but unaware, and perhaps in deliberate denial, that the state is an integral part of the agricultural city-State (civilization.) Civilization's foundation is aggression. The evidence lies in archeology and anthropology. Civilization (agricultural city-Statism) consistently invades and exterminates Non-State societies. The "voluntary city" is an oxymoron.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "Market capitalism isn't free. Agricultural city-States (civilization,) no matter the political flavor, are brutally aggressive. And you're in denial. Probably can't even recognize it, because you're so inured to the constant threat of State violence to protect "rights."" Nonsense, I am fully aware of state aggression which is why I'm a market anarchist.
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 2 years 34 weeks ago
    Sorry, Wendy and Lew
    Page John deLaubenfels
    Fifteen Minutes that Changed Libertarian Publishing.... http://mises.org/daily/4028 We already saw that the journal would have a unique citation format; that authors would love having their works online; that the time from submission to publication could be significantly lower than that of standard journals; that we had no need to have consecutive page numbering from article to article, or even a need to publish articles in artificial and pointless "issue" groupings; that each article would simply receive an article number and a volume number to uniquely identify it; that we would release not only a PDF but also a Word version, to make it easier for the ideas to be republished; and finally, that everything would be published open and free to the world under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License *(we would make it completely public domain if we were confident that would work; alas, copyright is sticky, and Creative Commons is the best we can do)*. Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ Copyright is sticky http://blog.mises.org/9240/copyright-is-very-sticky/ Search Mises: Kinsella Attribution:..... MisesWiki talk:Copyrights - Mises Wiki - Ludwig von Mises Institute May 11, 2011 ... Kinsella explains his position here, and the key quote is "the 'Attribution Share Alike' seeks to use one's copyright threat to force others ... wiki.mises.org wiki.mises.org/wiki/MisesWiki_talk:Copyrights clipped from Google - 11/2011 Recursive free information licenses - CC ShareAlike & Copyleft ... The Mises Institute uses Creative Commons Attribution, but without ShareAlike. .... However, as Kinsella points out, in our IP world, ... mises.org mises.org/Community/forums/t/24973.aspx clipped from Google - 11/2011 Copyright is very sticky! January 14, 2009 by Stephan Kinsella ... I tend to think the CC 3.0 Attribution license is the most libertarian–it only requires you to say who wrote it–but most ... blog.mises.org blog.mises.org/9240/copyright-is-very-sticky/ LabeledBlog clipped from Google - 11/2011 Fifteen Minutes that Changed Libertarian Publishing - Stephan ... Mises Daily: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 by Stephan Kinsella ... open and free to the world under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License (we would make ... mises.org mises.org/daily/4028 LabeledDaily Articles clipped from Google - 11/2011 Proeprty, Freedom, and Society: Essays in Honor of Hans-Hermann ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat ... Institute and published under the Creative Commons Attribution License 3.0. ... Jörg Guido Hülsmann and Stephan Kinsella. PART ONE: GRATO ANIMO ... mises.org mises.org/books/hulsmann-kinsella_property-freedom-society-2009.pdf clipped from Google - 11/2011 The Creator-Endorsed Mark as an Alternative to Copyright Jul 15, 2010 ... July 15, 2010 by Stephan Kinsella .... Volynets's “Authoright” idea (seem to be similar to Creative Commons-Attribution); Two by IP law professor Eric E. Johnson: ... blog.mises.org blog.mises.org/.../the-creator-endorsed-mark-as-an-alternative-to-copyright/ LabeledBlog clipped from Google - 11/2011 Intellectual Property Rights as Negative Servitudes Jun 23, 2011 ... Needless to say, Kinsella is not likely a fan or Reagan. ...... It has to do with the limited right of attribution to authors. ... Etc etc...
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    The point is that your market capitalism relies on heavy doses of aggression, just as socialism or communism relies on heavy doses of violence. Market capitalism isn't free. Agricultural city-States (civilization,) no matter the political flavor, are brutally aggressive. And you're in denial. Probably can't even recognize it, because you're so inured to the constant threat of State violence to protect "rights." Market capitalism is a city-Statist prison, just as is communism, that starves people into working. Both are literally a trail of tears. "Our system of private property in land forces landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not...Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of duress. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs." ~Dr. Ralph Borsodi Our Ugly Civilization [Simon & Schuster, NY (1929)] www.schoolofliving.org/Borsodi/This_Ugly_Civilization.pdf "You’ll know you’re among the people of your culture if the food is all owned, if it’s all under lock and key. But food was once no more owned than the air or the sunshine are owned. No other culture in history has ever put food under lock and key—and putting it there is the cornerstone of your economy, because if the food wasn’t under lock and key, who would work?...As long as the food remains under lock and key, the prison runs itself. The governing that you see is the prisoners governing themselves. They’re allowed to do that and live as they please within the prison." ~Daniel Quinn A Condensation of Daniel Quinn Thought http://www.lejournalmural.be/english-antilibrary/gorilla-1.html
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    The point is not that the states at the top of the list are free (they're not in any absolute sense), the point is that the more free market capitalism you have access to the better of you are and the more communism you have the worse off you are. It couldn't be more clear.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    If you want to equate efficient city-Statist aggression as freedom, have at it. I'm not swallowing the Heritage koolaid.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "From the evidence, one could just as easily conclude: "Strict Asian Lockdown culture clearly works." Or, "Empire clearly works." Or, "Economic Hitmen clearly work." Or, kowtowing to the only State in history to use Nuclear Weapons works." No, the economies with the most free economies are all near the top of the list and the ones with the least free economies are at the bottom.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    From the evidence, one could just as easily conclude: "Strict Asian Lockdown culture clearly works." Or, "Empire clearly works." Or, "Economic Hitmen clearly work." Or, kowtowing to the only State in history to use Nuclear Weapons works." Every one of those countries relies on massive amounts of violence to regulate and govern its society's massive amounts of rules. If they do have more freedom, it is only incremental, as one may have more freedom in one prison over another. Yes, some prisons are preferable over others; one would rather live in the Singapore city-State rather than in Pyongyang. Eglin Federal Prison Camp (Club Fed) is more free than San Quentin. But prisons are still prisons. Prisons are designed to restrict freedom. And the Agricultural city-State (civilization) is designed specifically to restrict freedom. Civilization violently invades and occupies Non-State societies and stops them from living in Non-State ways of living, i.e., foraging. The extreme aggression of civilization is documented throughout history.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    If anyone has empirical evidence of a city-dwelling human society (civilization) without State level politics, let me know.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    For all their faults, the economies so the countries at the top of the list are the most free in the world, allowing individuals the greatest latitude in disposing of their property, relative to other countries. More economic freedom will lead to even greater wealth. Freedom clearly works.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Accidental double post.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Nope, of course not.
  • tzo's picture
    tzo 2 years 34 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    So civilization is therefore dependent upon someone having a legal monopoly on force?