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  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    I appreciate your sentiments; many dissent and do not consent to agricultural city-statism's virtual prison lockdown on 99% of our home planet's surface. The problem I see with the sovereign movement, -- constitutionalist, libertarian, an-cap, or other flavors -- is that they imagine that some "pure" form of government within the agricultural city-state (civilization) that isn't brutally aggressive can be somehow conjured. They call it limited government, pure capitalism, constitutional government, privatized defense associations, etc. They would be as deluded. An integrated study of neurobiology, biological evolution, anthropology, and archeology will show that humans not only have not formed such a fantastical organization, it is most likely humans cannot, about as likely as conjuring an animated corpse. Most libertarian/anarchist literature, while expressing sentiments for a return to the freedom we humans lost with civilization -- and I share in that -- ignores significant empirical data obtained in the last 50 years, and is based on many false premises, thus leading Mises, Rand, etc. to significant errors. The most telling error is that libertarian types swallow is the Hobbesian mythology, which is a fabricated apology for city-statism. "Nasty, brutish, and short" has been discredited by empirical data; the more accurate view is "The Original Affluent Society." (Sahlins) In conclusion, I now judge libertarianism as a secular salvationist hope to escape the horrors of agricultural civilization, much like Christianity seeks to escape the curse of agricultural civilization in Heaven.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    G'day Sam, Found a great quote in Abstain From Beans. "Political voting is nothing more than the assumption that might makes right." Thanks.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    I am what I say I am, not what you and/or your master, the STATE, say I am. I do not consent to be a member of your "gang" [body politic]. Your "gang" can kick my ass every day, but that does not make me a member of your "gang". Actus me invito factus, non est meus actus. An act done by me against my will, is not my act.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Oh, you're a member. Not willingly, of course, but you are a member. There is no "sovereign individual" in the agricultural city-State (civilization.) The agricultural city-State (civilization) sits atop mountains of skulls. It's not interested in your ideas about how it's laws do not apply to you. The only individual sovereignty is found in an egalitarian (non-hierarchical) Non-State sociopolitical typology (bands or tribes.) "Historically, people in non-state societies are relatively autonomous and SOVEREIGN. They generate their own subsistence with little or no assistance from outside sources. They bow to no external political leaders. Nor are they routinely exploited by outsiders." NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES, adapted from Elman R. Service (1975), Origins of the State and Civilization: The Process of Cultural Evolution. New York: Norton. http://faculty.smu.edu/rkemper/cf_3333/Non_State_and_State_Societies.pdf
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Your government, Glen Allport, did not create air, it is therefore not "in charge" of the air, or even "air quality". "IT" does not say, to the air, "I demand that you be of a higher quality". As in all things, it is "in charge" of that which it has created, which includes artificial persons[1], such as citizen/subjects and corporations. ____________________________________________________ [1] Artificial persons. Persons created and devised by human laws for the purposes of...government, as distinguished from natural persons. ~ Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition (c.1991), page 113 [Emphasis and bracketed information added] NATURAL PERSONS. Such as are formed by nature [and therefore are subject to the "natural law of the human world"], as distinguished from artificial persons, [such as citizens] or corporations, formed by human laws for purposes of society and government. Wharton. ~ A Dictionary of the Law (Black’s 1st c. 1891), pg. 802 [Emphasis and bracketed information added]
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    I agree, the minarchists are deluding themselves. There is no "mini" State. But the anarcho-capitalists are deluding themselves too. There is no "voluntary city." The "State" (government) is a necessary and integral part of the cultural package of agricultural city-Statism (civilization.) Wherever there is POLIS (city-State) there is going to be POLICe and POLITics. That's the way city slickers roll. "When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe." ~Thomas Jefferson
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Ah, right, the % sign does add a couple zeros to correct my math calculation and make you one of a kind on the home planet! One of 7 billion humans mass-produced by agricultural city-Statism to serve as cannon fodder and a labor pool for the hierarchical elite. "In fact, the only thing that necessitates a large population is hierarchy itself. Hierarchy requires large pools of labor to provide for the nobility, and large populations that can be levied into large armies with which hierarchy can expand." Thesis #11: Hierarchy is an unnecessary evil. by Jason Godesky | 21 October 2005 http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    I've heard all of the catechism, (and I've got most of the libertarian canon, having once considered myself "libertarian/ancap" TRUE® Capitalism believer.) But you're whitewashing the aggression necessary to sustain any agricultural city-Statism (civilization,) whether Communism or Capitalism. Both left and right city-Statist government schemes rely on big-government enforced regulation of the Land, drawing artificial borders to restrict the free movement of free families to live a Non-State society's lifeways. (Service) Agricultural city-Statists must prevent people from natural ways of foraging for food. When the system controls and locks up the food,(Quinn) people are starved into submission; otherwise, nobody will work in the agricultural city-Statist's factories. (Bordosi) Stalin was just as eager to wipe-out tribal societies and force integration into agricultural city-Statism (civilization) as Ayn Rand, who stated to US Army West Point graduates in 1974: "[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land...Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent." Hers is a bald-faced apology for genocidal mass-murder. Still, Libertarians typically try to wriggle out of the inherent violence of the system by claiming that the aggression was all in the past during the Invasion of Turtle Island. But the aggression remains in this occupation. The aggression is revealed with one simple question: Officer, am I free to "gambol about plain and forest?" (Manning) The answer from the Marx-Mises axis of agricultural city-Statism is: MARX: NO! MISES: NO! It takes lots of guns to invade and mass-murder Non-State society and make that "no" stick every day of the city-Statist occupation. ___________________ References (in order used) • Many people living in non-state societies enjoy lifeways that a number of Americans seem intent on reinventing - such as close association with the land, small group size, and emphasis on oral traditions. NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES by Elman Service http://faculty.smu.edu/rkemper/cf_3333/Non_State_and_State_Societies.pdf • You’ll know you’re among the people of your culture if the food is all owned, if it’s all under lock and key. But food was once no more owned than the air or the sunshine are owned. No other culture in history has ever put food under lock and key—and putting it there is the cornerstone of your economy, because if the food wasn’t under lock and key, who would work? ~A Condensation of Daniel Quinn Thought Food Under Lock and Key http://www.lejournalmural.be/english-antilibrary/gorilla-content.html • Our system of private property in land forces landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not...Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of duress. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs. ~Dr. Ralph Bordosi This Ugly Civilization http://www.schoolofliving.org/Borsodi/This_Ugly_Civilization.pdf • Why agriculture? In retrospect, it seems odd that it has taken archaeologists and paleontologists so long to begin answering this essential question of human history. What we are today—civilized, city-bound, overpopulated, literate, organized, wealthy, poor, diseased, conquered, and conquerors—is all rooted in the domestication of plants and animals. The advent of farming re-formed humanity. In fact, the question "Why agriculture?" is so vital, lies so close to the core of our being that it probably cannot be asked or answered with complete honesty. Better to settle for calming explanations of the sort Stephen Jay Gould calls "just-so stories." In this case, the core of such stories is the assumption that agriculture was better for us. Its surplus of food allowed the leisure and specialization that made civilization. Its bounty settled, refined, and educated us, freed us from the nasty, mean, brutish, and short existence that was the state of nature, freed us from hunting and gathering. Yet when we think about agriculture, and some people have thought intently about it, the pat story glosses over a fundamental point. This just-so story had to have sprung from the imagination of someone who never hoed a row of corn or rose with the sun for a lifetime of milking cows. GAMBOLING ABOUT PLAIN AND FOREST, hunting and living off the land is fun. Farming is not. That's all one needs to know to begin a rethinking of the issue. The fundamental question was properly phrased by Colin Tudge of the London School of Economics: “The real problem, then, is not to explain why some people were slow to adopt agriculture but why anybody took it up at all.” ~Richard Manning Against the Grain, p.24 http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-Agriculture-Hijacked-Civilization/dp...
  • Samarami's picture
    Samarami 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    My "1%" statement to your essay is simply a declaration of freedom. I am sovereign -- a free state within an occupied "nation". Tzo's miniscule percent of a percent may be more realistic. And White Indian's calculation that tzo is one of 500 on earth may indeed represent a reasonable assessment of just how many truly "free" individuals there are in this world occupied by agents of state and supporters thereof (albeit reluctant supporters in most instances). Your essay, Glen, was good, well put together, statistically verified and informative. You put a lot of hard work into it, and I respect you for that. You obviously see agents of state for the predators they are. But alas, your solution turns out to be political. We've had lengthy and exhaustive threads here as recently as a month or two ago dealing with "mini" statism and the Ron Paul campaign. My studies indicate mini statism is akin to mini pregnancy. As a father of 7, grandfather of 24, and great grandfather of many; well, I can tell you something about mini pregnancies. I would not hesitate to turn the delivery of my children -- now grandchildren and great grandchildren -- over to Dr. Ron Paul. I know him and Mrs. Paul personally (have children and grandchildren actively working in his "campaign" for Grand Wizard). Government elections do not engender honesty. Dr. Paul is honest. He is not electable. I support Dr Paul's return to doctoring, which is an honest profession. Abstain from beans. Sam
  • Lawrence M. Ludlow's picture
    Lawrence M. Ludlow 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Alex R. Knight III
    This was a wonderful and particularly accurate depiction of the state of civilization in this horrible train-wreck of a society, which has departed in every way possible from its overt excuse for existence. The anachronistic and silly observations of WhiteIndian above are an example of the intellectual product of arrested cases of development. His assumption is that were are to somehow revere the Greeks! What silliness. The Framers themselves looked with horror upon both Greece and Rome -- and with good reason. In his abject worship of the Greek Polis and its absurd civilization, he must assume that we revere the very people who forced the hemlock on Socrates and destroyed their own civilization from inside-out by bankrupting it on building projects and imposing dominion on its neighbors -- thus increasing the bankruptcy! I suppose if one wishes to model the dysfunctional behaviors of the Greeks, the absurd and criminal miscreants in Washington, D.C. can be said to be the re-enactors of de-civilization. And to address the actual topic of your article -- something that the swerving intellect of WhiteIndian was unable to do -- Alex, you have reminded us of the parallel paths that democracy took in Germany and is now imitating in the USSA. We now have two systems of courts -- one that pretends to hold sway (with habeus corpus and the rest of the legal framework) and the other that mimics the infamous "people's courts" of Nazi Germany (the off-the-books, secret, torturing, extra-judicial kangaroo courts and assassinations that are used to sweep away people that the government would like to silence lest the booboisie be stampeded away from its devotion to shopping). Bravo, Alex, for reminding us that -- as my friend Tim once said to me about those who want to wear a uniform in a plunder-based society of coercion: "Larry, you know what's wrong with cops? They wanted to be cops."
  • tzo's picture
    tzo 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Actually, just 1 (move two more decimal places for the %-sign).
  • Glen Allport's picture
    Glen Allport 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    The State is aggression, and nothing but. Capitalism is the opposite of aggression: it is voluntary cooperation. You can say NO to Apple or Staples or a local business; you cannot say NO to government. Try it and see. What you are talking about is corporatism, where corporations use government force to their advantage. You can't say NO to Blackwater or other government contractors because government hires them using your money, like it or not. You can't say NO to Monsanto's GMO nightmares because the government has appropriated regulation of the environment and the EPA, FDA, USDA, etc are -- like every regulatory agency -- more interested in providing advantage to big business than in protecting your health, safety, or pocketbook. Capitalism provides for human need on a voluntary basis; every exchange in true capitalism is voluntary and therefore beneficial to both parties, as the parties themselves see things. Corrupted capitalism -- corporatism -- is another matter entirely.
  • Glen Allport's picture
    Glen Allport 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Yes, I did mean it -- although in all of those cases -- especially the EPA -- it's a mixed bag at best, of course. Government roads are useful and providing them is a service. I use the roads every day, directly and indirectly. Of course I'd rather the government not be involved, but the point is the government IS involved whether I like it or not. The air in Southern California IS a bunch cleaner than it was in the 60s when my family first moved there -- again, I'd rather that civil society rather than coercive government were the agent for this but government steps in and forcibly takes over whatever society begins noticing as a problem (civil rights being another example). Far better to have a non-coercive group do it (Underwriter Labs and many other groups like them for product safety in various industries, for example) but it is still a fact that for now, government has appropriated the provision of many goods and services.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    That makes about 100 of your kind in the world!
  • livefreeretiree's picture
    livefreeretiree 2 years 31 weeks ago Page livefreeretiree
    Thank you kindly, Jesse. Permission and blessing bestowed. Language is an interesting thing... people tend to forget all too soon that it is an arbitrary innovation with an evolutionary past but still subject to the individual using it in each circumstance. People think the job of a dictionary is to define words, forgetting that is the people using the words that define them while the book is merely a record. When I talk about "education", people picture government-run public indoctrination centers. Rarely does anyone grant me space to define the term as I am using it. I define education as an increased understanding of cause and effect principles of reality. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Capitalism relies on aggression. Libertarians whitewash the necessary violence to enforce the rules of the rent-seekers with their abstract property theory, but it's rather unconvincing. Locke's property in his "Of Property" relies on religious monotheism and the resulting hierarchy, as follows: GOD MAN WOMAN (submits to husband) ANIMALS (submits to husbandry) NATURE (only useful as human property) In reality, humans are evolved animals just like a crow or dolphin, and we don't see those species claiming abstract ownership of the earth's resources, and charging rent to other members of their specie. And if they did, we'd see a huge increase in violence, just like anthropologists and archeologists see whenever humans began to use domestication and agriculture, on the way to agricultural city-Statism. Many people can't see how the Capitalist culture is based on violence, but Derrick Jensen does a good job of illustrating in this interview: Everyday Violence http://rewild.info/anthropik/2007/04/everyday-violence/index.html
  • tzo's picture
    tzo 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    I am the .0000000143%.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Paul Bonneau
    "I hope people who visit STR don’t get the impression that freedom and liberty are complicated things. They are not." ~ Paul Bonneau Not to worry, Paul, natural rights and natural law are not "complicated things". Most people know and understand them without even knowing what they are called. "Children learn the fundamental principles of natural law at a very early age. Thus they very early understand that one child must not, without just cause, strike or otherwise hurt, another; that one child must not assume any arbitrary control or domination over another; that one child must not, either by force, deceit, or stealth, obtain possession of anything that belongs to another; that if one child commits any of these wrongs against another, it is not only the right of the injured child to resist, and, if need be, punish the wrongdoer, and compel him to make reparation, but that it is also the right, and the moral duty, of all other children, and all other persons, to assist the injured party in defending his rights, and redressing his wrongs. These are fundamental principles of natural law, which govern the most important transactions of man with man. Yet children learn them earlier than they learn that three and three are six, or five and five ten. Their childish plays, even, could not be carried on without a constant regard to them; and it is equally impossible for persons of any age to live together in peace on any other conditions." ~ Natural Law; or the Science of Justice by Lysander Spooner "Children learn the fundamental principles of natural law at a very early age," because, ″Natural law is that body of rules which Man is able to discover by the use of his reason.″ ~ Hugo Grotius "A philosopher can choose to disbelieve in Newton's laws, but this will not enable him to fly. He can disbelieve in natural law, but political and social institutions built on false law will fail, just as a bridge built on false physical law will fall..." ~ James A. Donald http://jim.com/rights.html Introduction to Natural Law by Murray N. Rothbard "The natural law and the positive law are not alternative systems of rules that apply to the same thing. The natural law is the law of natural persons and positive law is a law of artificial persons." ~ Natural Law by Frank van Dun, Ph.D., Dr.Jur. - Senior lecturer Philosophy of Law "The natural law always buries its undertakers." ~ Etienne Gilson
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    G'day Glen Allport, You wrote: "You're certainly right that there is simply no way to avoid using government services -- can't breathe the air without do [sic] so, as the EPA is "in charge" of air quality. Not to mention roads, air traffic control, and so many other things." You cannot possibly be serious!? If a man "breathes the air", he's using a government service!? That's not rational, that's a vain attempt at rationalizing staying bellied up to the trough. Hell, the adversary doesn't even believe that, Glen Allport! A l'impossible nul n'est tenu. No one is bound to do what is impossible. 1 Bouv. Inst. n. 601. Impotentia excusat legem. Impossibility excuses the law. Co. Litt. 29. Nemo tenetur ad impossibile. No one is bound to an impossibility.
  • Glen Allport's picture
    Glen Allport 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Hi, Sam. I don't understand your comment: are you saying you're the 1% as I use the term in my column (i.e., someone who pulls wealth from others by the use, in one way or another, of government coercion against your fellow man)? Or are you using the term as many of the Occupy Wall Street protesters do, meaning just someone who has more money and an easier life than they do?
  • Samarami's picture
    Samarami 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    I am the 1%. Sam
  • Paul's picture
    Paul 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Thanks for the great article, Glen. Looks like a lot of work went into it. I hope at least some OWS and Tea Party folks take a look at it. The sad thing is the lost potential when parasitism takes over. People settle for so much less than we would be capable of without it. Even the parasites themselves settle for a much uglier existence than they could have had.
  • Glen Allport's picture
    Glen Allport 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    I'm undecided about whether our original copyright system was a reasonable approximation of what the market might have provided -- something along the lines of Creative Commons, perhaps -- but there's no doubt that the US copyright system has become a corporatist tool for plunder and repression (SOPA being only the most recent expression of this). You're certainly right that there is simply no way to avoid using government services -- can't breathe the air without do so, as the EPA is "in charge" of air quality. Not to mention roads, air traffic control, and so many other things.
  • tzo's picture
    tzo 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    "Nor was government involved in crushing Jobs' competition..." Well, copyright laws certainly helped Apple keep their niche sewn up tightly. Of course, he had no choice but to use those laws or others would have and excluded him from his own products. Just goes to show that no matter how much you may want to become wealthy through making exclusively voluntary exchanges in this society, you really can't do it.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Mike Powers
    The fact that the government’s central bank has doubled the money supply over the past four years has nothing to do with prices going up, according to Chavez. “The law of supply and demand is a lie. These are not arbitrary measures. They are necessary.” Maybe Hugo needs to consult with Evangelina. "Evangelina Guerra, standing in line to get into the Dulcinea market in Caracas, said, “This is more regulation on top of regulation, and what we have is sky-high inflation and a lack of products.”" But, only if Evangelina understands that "inflation" is defined as "a persistent decline in the purchasing power of money, caused by an increase in available currency and credit beyond the proportion of available goods and services". (Source: 2010 American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Alex R. Knight III
    "I suggest you have a look at some of the iconography government is putting out there – symbolism, if you will. " Whoa, are these symbols being put out by government, or privately by some who work for government? Interesting either way, but I think the difference is significant.
  • Paul's picture
    Paul 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Paul Bonneau
    "When changing their mind clearly benefits them." Or when following the standard narrative clearly doesn't. Lots of people waking up these days. Hard to say what nudges them in the right direction - an irritation at being treated like a peon, or mere exposure to Ron Paul, or being out of a job, or being tased by a cop, or who knows what. Or a combination. Lots of people might even figure out the income tax really is crap after all, when they see their taxes going to crony bailouts and worthless wars. Benefit is not measured only in monetary terms, by the way. A person still has to be able to look at himself in the mirror every morning. Anyway this article is just a suggestion we not lose track of the main thing here. I don't think endless nattering over justifications for freedom is very helpful in the big picture.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Paul Bonneau
    "The question is, when do they give up on the propaganda that no longer even roughly appears to describe reality? When do they start getting angry? When do they decide not to put up with crap any more?" When changing their mind clearly benefits them. Often it doesn't. For instance: The income tax is crap, but I don't judge it will benefit me to stop paying. For the same reason there's not much incentive for someone who mistakenly thinks that the income tax isn't crap to even change their mind about it.
  • Paul's picture
    Paul 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Paul Bonneau
    For some reason Rob edited my comment about Will Grigg. It should read, "He really has a line on the criminal Justice System." I intentionally uncapitalized "criminal", turning what was part of the name of this system, into an adjective.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "The life of an Indian is a continual holiday, compared with the poor of Europe; and, on the other hand it appears to be abject when compared to the rich.* *(We should not, IMO, take lightly the fact that Thomas wrote "is" regarding the poor, and "appears to be" regarding the rich", for that which "appears to be", not always, "is" what it appears to be.) Civilization, therefore, or that which is so called, has operated two ways: to make one part of society more affluent, and the other more wretched, than would have been the lot of either in a natural state. It is always possible to go from the natural to the civilized state, but it is never possible to go from the civilized to the natural state. The reason is that man in a natural state, subsisting by hunting, requires ten times the quantity of land to range over to procure himself sustenance, than would support him in a civilized state, where the earth is cultivated. When, therefore, a country becomes populous by the additional aids of cultivation, art and science, there is a necessity of preserving things in that state; because without it there cannot be sustenance for more, perhaps, than a tenth part of its inhabitants." ~ Excerpted from Agrarian Justice, by Thomas Paine
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Michael Dunn
    "And historical events come with the inevitability of a law of nature." That's one statement upon which libertarians agree with Marx. The way to discover it is to mention the aggressive invasion and enforced occupation of Turtle Island by Western agricultural city-Statism (Civilization.) You may also observe self-styled "freedom" advocates flippantly excusing genocide with similar sentiments as follows: "[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, United States Military Academy, March 6, 1974 At least Ayn didn't try to whitewash the city-Statist aggression with the "homesteading" apology.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Alex R. Knight III
    Since you mentioned symbols — and related them to the professionally violent — I can't help but recall the following essay: "The need for symbols — and violence — did not always obtain, however." The Failure of Symbolic Thought by John Zerzan (from his book Running on Emptiness) http://www.primitivism.com/emptiness.htm
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Voluntary city-Statism (civilization) is about as likely as noiseless jets or animating a corpse, and there are clear reasons that neither can happen. A voluntary city might be a wonderful thing, but then noiseless jets or a Rising Savior would be wonderful things too, only if they were realistically possible. Some of your hope is based on your desire for freedom. I stand with you on that. And I compliment you on your being one of the few people in our culture to actually recognize the inherent violence of the city-Statist system, and speak out against it. But much of your hope for a voluntary civilization is based on false premises. The foremost false premise is the completely disproven Hobbesian mythology of "savages" (literally, dwellers of the silva, or forest.) All of the libertarian writers, including Rand, accept this distorted city-Statist apologetics that encourage submission to the agricultural-city-Statist system because of unwarranted fear of wilderness. The more accurate outlook of tribal Non-city-State life, based on empirical data, is "The Original Affluent Society."
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Michael Dunn
    ""Let’s look at why people produce things in a free market." Ok, let's do it. Men do not do repetitive work as a matter of choice. They do it out of dire necessity. They can be driven to this sort of work only if they are deprived of access to the land. Our system of private property in land forces landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not. Wherever access to land is free, men work only to provide what they actually need or desire. Wherever the white man has come in contact with savage cultures this fact becomes apparent. There is for savages in their native state no such sharp distinction between "work" and "not working" as clocks and factory whistles have accustomed the white man to accept. They cannot be made to work regularly at repetitive tasks in which they have no direct interest except by some sort of duress. Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of duress. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs. Only after he has made it impossible for them to support themselves as they desire, does be find it possible to drive them to work for him according to approved factory techniques, with sharp distinctions between the time devoted to productive labor and the time devoted to rest or play. ~Dr. Ralph Borsodi, This Ugly Civilization (1929) Looks to me like "free" market is about as free as "glorious" communism is glorious. In fact, both as city-Statist (civilization) political flavors are more similar than they are different. Both heavily regulate the Land with big-government artificial privation property borders that restrict the free movement of people to live a Non-State society lifeway of foraging. If they didn't cause such privation, nobody would do drudge work in horrible factories and offices, away from their families all day, for the hierarchical elite.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Page Alex R. Knight III
    The armed violence professional (POLICe, the enforcer of POLITical POLIcy) was one of the first "divisions of labor" of the agricultural city-State (POLIS, or Civilization.) Think about that next time some Austrian school of economic bloviation praises the wonders of city-Statism's (civilization's) "division of labor" (and hierarchy. *) As long as there are cities and city-people (POLI,) there is going to be aggression, and lots of it. The "voluntary city" is an oxymoron. Jefferson didn't know about Dunbar's Number ** -- the concept that explains the "behavior sink" *** of humans maladapted to mass societies beyond their neurobiological evolutionary limits -- yet he was a good observer, as follows: "When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe." ~Thomas Jefferson ________________ * Egalitarianism is an essential part of human nature; it is the very thing that led to our humanity... Thesis #11: Hierarchy is an unnecessary evil. by Jason Godesky | 21 October 2005 http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/ ** If the monkey scientists are monkey right, it’s physically impossible for this to be a number larger than 150. Most of us do not have room in our Monkeysphere for our friendly neighborhood Sanitation Worker. So, we don’t think of him as a person. We think of him The Thing That Makes The Trash Go Away. Here we see the essential problem with any large-scale society: we cannot conceive of so many people. It speaks to the very heart of Stalin’s cold truism: “One death is a tragedy, but a million deaths are a statistic.” Thus, for any society much larger than 150 people, we become neurologically incapable of maintaining an egalitarian society. Hierarchy becomes necessary, yet the human animal is very much adapted to egalitarianism–and in no way adapted to hierarchy. Cross-culturally, we all have some expectations rooted in that egalitarian heritage. We expect freedom, and we expect to be treated as a human being rather than a stereotype. We all feel some negative feeling of stress when these expectations are not met–as they invariably are not met in any large, HIERARCHICAL society. Thesis #7: Humans are best adapted to band life. by Jason Godesky | 22 September 2005 http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/ *** As the scientist observed, a social HIERARCHY developed... Plumbing the ‘Behavioral Sink’ Medical Historian Examines NIMH Experiments in Crowding http://nihrecord.od.nih.gov/newsletters/2008/07_25_2008/story1.htm
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "Simply show me a city-lized society with large permanent settlements of 5000+ which does not have State level politics." That would only make your case if what has not happened cannot happen. But that's clearly not true.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    I put it in quotes because what's in quotes is the gist of the false choice he presented as most people in this culture. But if you're offended by the quotes, then I'll apologize for them and consider them removed. OK? Do you call sex "work?" No? Why not? How about a stroll through the woods? No? Technically, in the physics sense it is work. Right? So quit playing word games. What is commonly called "work" is "working for the man" so you can make money so you can pay the rent-seekers just to eat and have shelter. So no, dolphins don't have to "go to work." Neither did humans in the Original Affluent Society. In fact, anthropologists have observed that hunter-gatherers only "work" (actively hunting or gathering) an average of 2 hours per day. But they also note that it isn't really "work" and the people don't view it as "work." It's play. "Play" or even "party atmosphere" is how anthropologists describe daily life in a Non-State tribal society. Even Thomas Paine noted in his Agrarian Justice pamphlet that "The Life of an Indian is a continual holiday." Huge difference from Office Space. And please, if you're going to parrot how "nasty and brutish" paleolithic life was, admit you're just repeating the city-Statist Hobbesian mythology, which most city-Statist Libertarians (including Rand) also purport as true. Archeology and anthropology have turned Hobbesian fallacy on its head. Regarding violence: there was indeed violence, but it was less. For paleolithic people, it was something that happened occasionally. For city-Statists, it's a nearly daily way of life. We know from archeological evidence when it increased too - domestication and agriculture. A couple of the essays I reference above address violence extensively, and cite scholarly literature.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    G'day WhiteIndian, So, my non-judgmental conclusion is, because you believe that "city-Statism" is an "inescapable prison sentence", you do, out of 'absolute necessity', of course, apparently "settle for make-believe". Based upon your reply, and because your self-made persona is "WhiteIndian", a few more questions now arise. Why did you change my "hunter-gatherer" to "gather/horticulturalist[1]"? Why not, as the vast majority of The People [Red Indians] once were, a "hunter-gatherer"? Are you a vegetarian or vegan? And, were not, and are not, horticulturists, i.e. "One[s] who [are] skilled in the art of cultivating gardens[2]," directly involved in the creation of your, seemingly, much hated "agricultural city-States"? ____________________________________________________________________________ [1] horticulturalist Definitions - Wiktionary - common misspelling of horticulturist. [2] Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language
  • Darkcrusade's picture
    Darkcrusade 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOo9bjLtL3Q&feature=player_embedded
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 31 weeks ago
    Never Volunteer
    Page Paul Hein
    G'day John, I hope to answer, here, three different questions you asked of me in two different places. Elsewhere you asked: "I think even committed statists would do well to evict the state from their marriages. What do you have in mind with individual secession?" It is one's "marriage" to the State that is the real "root" of the problem. As long as it can be presumed that one remains a consenting member of a man-made government, it has control over what that individual may legally do. Secession is defined in Black's 6th, at page 1351, as, "The act of withdrawing from membership in a group." Pretty succinct. So, like the members of the United States, in their collective capacity, did to King George, the individual manifestly rebuts the so-called "presumption in law", that (s)he is a citizen/subject, by formally "withdrawing from membership in [the] group". "I would suggest using the Declaration of Independence as a good place to start....just update the text with modern phrasing [and personalize it] and insert appropriate examples of tyrannical abuses. Whether or not an armed conflict would result, would depend on the players involved." ~ Tuppence He suggests this because for the agents of the UNITED STATES to even claim that it "legally" exists, they have to "legally recognize" their own so-called Declaration of Independence, which was a manifest notice of secession. You can view my version of it, if you like, by scrolling down the comments here. Keep in mind, as you read it, that notice to the agent is notice to the principal, and notice to the principal is notice to the agent. On this thread, you asked these two questions: "What is it precisely you would have me do? And can you clarify what you mean by member-only benefits?" First, the "you" was only figurative, since I don't presume to tell any one what (s)he should do. You wrote: "I do not consent to government. As a sovereign my word is the rebuttal." That is correct...as far as it goes. However, "actions speak louder than words", as you no doubt know. If you are still acting like a citizen/subject by asking permission from the government in the form of licenses and permits, etcetera, and by soliciting and/or accepting member-only benefits, then what you do speaks so loud they can't hear what you say, as Ralph Waldo Emerson is reputed to have 'said'. Que sentit commodum, sentire debet et onus. He who derives a benefit from a thing, ought to feel the disadvantages attending it. 2 Bouv. Inst. n. 1433. Care to guess what one of the main "disadvantages" is? Allegiance! And, allegiance is defined as, "Obligation of fidelity and obedience to government in consideration for protection [the primary benefit] that government gives." What are "member-only benefits"? These are the benefits and/or privileges, some of which are known as political/civil rights, that PERSONS are eligible for as members of the body politic, the political corporation. Generally, if not always, obtaining any of these will require the use of a membership card (a "legally recognized" ID, such as a Taxpayer Identification Number, a driver's license, STATE identification card, etc.) Just having one of these, by the way, is a benefit/privilege of membership. If you don't believe that, try not using any of them, ever again, and see what it's like to really be "sovereign".
  • B.R. Merrick's picture
    B.R. Merrick 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    I remember when I was more conservative-leaning and Levin would come on talk radio. He was constantly yelling at the callers, referring to them as morons. That's all his show is worth.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 31 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    G'day again WhiteIndian, Are you not presenting false quotes? At least I cannot find where Mark Davis, or anyone else on this page, used either of these two phrases, "work hard to produce" or "steal by political means". Dolphins, squirrels, crows do not "produce", in the sense of creating, (other than their "nests"), but they certainly must "work hard" at surviving. And, although they apparently do not use "political means", at least some of them do, in fact, "steal"; they steal each others "kill" or "gatherings", just as some of the, so-called, American Indians did.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 32 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Simply show me a city-lized society with large permanent settlements of 5000+ which does not have State level politics. Hint: there are none. It takes deliberate evasion of volumes of empirical evidence to gainsay the observation that agricultural-City-State (civilization) is an integrated cultural package. Not only is in clearly observable, we know why it developed and how, supported by multiple fields of study, including biological evolution, neurobiology, archeology, anthropology, ethnology, sociology, and history. Ayn Rand said to "check your premises." She should have taken her own advice; she was completely wrong on so much. But we've gained much empirical data in the last several decades about our long past, and it is even more culturally controversial than the theory of biological evolution, and for much the same reason; that is, the literal creationist myth and the "nasty-brutish-short" Hobbesian mythology— city-Statist apologetics—are proven false. Author Daniel Quinn calls it the "Great Remembering." If you're interested in freedom, it's time to do some inductive thinking from empirical evidence instead of deductive logic from faulty premises. _______________________ (1) The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race by Jared Diamond, UCLA School of Medicine http://www.mnforsustain.org/food_ag_worst_mistake_diamond_j.htm (2) Health and the Rise of Civilization by Mark Nathan Cohen Yale University Press http://www.primitivism.com/health-civilization.htm (3) Agriculture: Demon Engine of Civilization by John Zerzan http://rewild.info/anthropik/library/zerzan/demon-engine-of-civilization... (4) The Original Affluent Society by Marshall Sahlins University of Chicago http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm also see http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/220original.html (5) "War is a staple of civilization..." On the Origins of War by John Zerzan www.jesusradicals.com/wp-content/uploads/origins-of-war.pdf (6) The Final Empire: The Collapse of Civilization and the Seed of the Future by William H. Kötke http://www.rainbowbody.net/Finalempire/ (7) Hunter Gatherers And The Golden Age Of Man http://www.raw-food-health.net/HunterGatherers.html (8) The Thirty Theses Jason Godesky http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/ (9) What is Rhizome? Jeff Vail http://www.jeffvail.net/2007/01/what-is-rhizome.html (10) best videos/movies: (a) END:CIV Resist or Die http://endciv.com/ (b) What A Way to Go: Life at the End of Empire http://www.whatawaytogomovie.com/watch-the-movie/ (c) Yu Koyo Peya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2SRAe7z6iA
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 32 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "It is as contradictory to have a civilization without State as it is to have jet aircraft without jets." No, you can know a priori that a jet engine has jets, while you claim your justification is empirical.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 32 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    You're presenting a false choice. Dolphins, squirrels, crows, don't have to either "work hard to produce" or "steal by political means." And neither do humans. 8 million years of our specie thriving prove that much. Anthropologists now call pre-production society "The Original Affluent Society." The agricultural city-State (Civilization) is based on aggressively invading and forcing people to work by depriving them from the quite easy means of foraging for food.
  • Mark Davis's picture
    Mark Davis 2 years 32 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    There are two ways for a person to obtain what they want (and, obviously, need): work for it or take it. Trade is a sub-set of working for it because you need to have something to trade with first. The work for it method (economic means) creates the conditions and incentives for people to cooperate with each other on a voluntary basis. The take it method (political means) institutionalizes violence as its organizing principle. Civilization arises when a society creates the conditions necessary for that society to prosper. Historically, societies have been created by the first method and then commandeered by the second method. This does not mean that a society must always be consumed by a state, only that people who promote violence have thus far been able to enslave people who promote peace in the long run. Although most people prefer peace to violence, many still live in fear of violent people. Thus they succumb to strongmen-states as a demonstrable way to deal with perceived threats (often phantom threats); they sell their liberty for the false promise of security. As long as a majority of men remain cowards too afraid to take responsibility for their lives, the state will continue to enslave them. Those whom seek a peaceful society only need to empower enough men with the courage to stand on their own two feet to leave the violent state model of organizing society and be truly free. This is not a false hope because society would have never developed beyond a pack of animals without the human desire for peace with neighbors. Society evolving to the next level has taken a long time, but it will occur eventually. The internet reformation gives me hope that the people who wish to live together in peaceful cooperation will be able to defend themselves from the inherently corrupt, violent and immoral people who promote the state. It should be obvious to anybody who has "studied anthropology, archeology, history, ethnology, game theory and evolutionary biology" that the struggle for civilization has always been between those that take responsibility for their own lives seeking peaceful cooperation and those that want to take what they want with violence (includes voting).
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 32 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    No, nobody but a few survivors in the most marginal of land can live as a Non-State band or tribal gatherer/horticulturalist. The agricultural city-State is brutally invasive and occupational, and the occupation continues. I ask every day: Officer, am I free to gambol about plain and forest? Each day the answer is the same from the whole political spectrum—capitalism to communism—of the agricultural city-Statists: No! So the best I can do, for now, while inside the prison of civilization, is to unschool and rewild and survive the inescapable prison sentence of city-Statism.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 2 years 32 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    G'day WhiteIndian, You wrote: "I don't settle for make-believe." So, if you don't mind my asking a few questions, does this mean that you live the life of a hunter-gatherer? Are you a member of a tribe? And, do you use any "civilized tools" for hunting and/or gathering? I also wrote to give you my thanks, because of you, I was led to this. "In Indigenous societies, we are told that Natural Law is the highest law, higher than the laws made by nations, states, municipalities and the world bank. That one would do well to live in accordance with Natural Law, with those of our Mother [the Earth]." ~ Winona LaDuke, of the Mississippi Band of the Anishinaabe of the White Earth Reservation, Minnesota The Natural Law is the "Great Law of Peace".
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 2 years 32 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    The very definition—derived from empirical evidence—of the city-State (civilization) includes State level organization. It is as contradictory to have a civilization without State as it is to have jet aircraft without jets. The libertarian priestcraft and true believers must evade overwhelming empirical evidence—anthropology (especially the Original Affluent Society,) archeology, history, ethnology, game theory (especially the Prisoner's Dilemma,) evolutionary biology (especially Dunbar's Number and Biological Egalitarianism)—to claim it feasible to conjure a city-State without a State. An animated corpse is just as "possible" as a voluntary city; here will be no Zombie Savior. Libertarian economic theory is as much a false hope as the Rapture. If either were credible, I'd be a believer. We all seek to be somehow saved from the absolute catastrophe the agricultural city-State has made of Mother Earth and the lives of her many children.
  • John T. Kennedy's picture
    John T. Kennedy 2 years 32 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    I don't see you making any case for the logical impossibility of this, you only argue that it hasn't happened. You've been given other examples of things that hadn't happened in human history and then happened. You seem to feel no need to address this. "Myself, I'd rather strike at the root of our human crisis, and that root isn't merely the State, but the indivisibly integrated cultural package of agricultural city-State (civilization) itself." I guess you will then.