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  • Glen Allport's picture
    Glen Allport 3 years 18 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    I'm a fan of Kurzweil also, and the accelerating pace of change he talks about is such that I'm surprised at it all over again whenever I think about it or take another look at one of his charts. He does understate the negative possibilities, though -- Bill Joy is just as reasonable and persuasive but has a much darker take on what we'll get out of the coming hyper-tech. (Joy's "The Future Doesn't Need Us" at Wired, from a decade ago, is still an interesting read). One of the points I've made repeatedly in my writing is that what people choose to DO with technology -- at any level -- depends largely on their emotional health and their world view. A healthier society will use tech in healthier ways, and this factor is going to be ever-more important going forward.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 18 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    The Death Cult likes to first dehumanize and degrade that which it wants to abuse and destroy. All part of the war on "primitive" life itself, Mother Earth and her Children. Well, not children. Meatbags. "The only good meatbag is a dead meatbag." Nips, Huns, Injuns, SandNiggers and no-good-Shit MeatBags.
  • GeoffreyTransom's picture
    GeoffreyTransom 3 years 18 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Thanks for the nice response, Glenn. As I've mentioned here and elsewhere, I am an arch-contrarian in my investment strategy (my favourite Commitment of Traders indicator is what I call the 'Dumb Bull Ratio', and I use BPI and CCI extremes to position AGAINST the crowd)... BUT when it comes to the nascent ability of human ingenuity to open up the mysteries of technology I become almost almost quasi-religious. So I'm a HUGE fan of Kurzweil, Drexler and their ilk (I even have difficulty disliking Aubrey de Grey). For me it all goes back to Richard Feynman's 1959 talk - "There's PLENTY of Room at the Bottom" - I read it in the early 90s, and read Drexler's "Engines of Creation" the same week. Back then, the second half of the 21st century was the likely target date for nano-assemblers and strong AI... and Kurzweil then said "Nah - it'll be here by 2029 at the latest". And he's been correct - or even slightly LATE - on other things (like the human genome mapping projections). Last year, the Cray XK6 continued the trend set by Chinese supercomputer Tianhe-1A in 2010 - we went past Moravec's estimate of the human brain's theoretical processing capacity in 2008 with 'Roadrunner' (Moravec's estimate is equal to about 1 petaflop)... Tianhe-1A hit 2.5 Petaflops. Cray's XK6 can (theoretically) scale to 50 petaFlops, but is already delivering a 20PFlop machine (which is well above the upper bound for human brain simulation). Moore's law just got pwned. And supercomputers don't have to dedicate processing power to running a liver or spleen, dragging its meatbag to the toilet for a shit every 19 hours or so, or wondering whether its wife fancies the milkman or if Ron Paul will get any media attention. (What I am getting at, is that human cognition involves MASSIVE redundancy and also a large processor load dedicated to systems 'support'). When (not if) we get Strong AI, and the technological acceleration begins in earnest, our interaction with and understanding of the physical universe will be so fundamentally altered that our current understanding of the 'state of nature' will seem childish and silly by comparison. I can't wait. We will find out that the universe is even more awesome than we already know... and we will learn that the 'tragedy of the commons' only exists due to the primitive awkwardness of our production technology.
  • GeoffreyTransom's picture
    GeoffreyTransom 3 years 18 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    That video was awesome - the best use of vocoder I have ever seen (WAY better than the Cher song that made it acceptable). I am a big lover of Sagan - the man knew how important altered states of consciousness are to developing a proper sense of self (and to make one's philosophical life more productive: the myth of the 'stoner' is simply dumb, since weed is mostly a force-multiplier). The man made it clear: he smoked weed EVERY DAY. That said, I have never smoked anything in my life - edibles suffice, along with 'primitive' ingestibles - from peyote to mescaline to mushrooms to morning glory tea... and one day I will do a proper ayahuasca experience. Imagine how awesome humanity would become if we forced ALL candidates for political office to undertake a (non-pharma) hallucinogenic experience: the Cheney types would trip balls and horrify themselves when they looked into their inner abyss and it snarled back at them... they would find that deep down they are so monstrous that they don't really even care about themSELVES. You're right about the OT critique though - the foundational myths of any 'nation' are almost always intensely statist. The cock-snipping and willingness to kill one's own kids in exchange for power is the sort of thing we're encouraged to associate with 'primitive' cultures, in order to misdirect us from the fact that the really horrifying behaviour is decided upon by nicely dressed people speaking in gentle voices in palaces. Michio Kaku's observation is something I have banged on about for a decade - We could be in the middle Of an inter-galactic conversation And we wouldn't even know Any civilisation that is a generation more advanced than we are, will not require little grey dorky bodies, will not need to speak through a meatbag, will be 1/50th the size of a virus, and their radio traffic will be encrypted and thus utterly indistinguishable from background noise. AND they'll be able to interact with us mind to mind if they so choose... but they would feel no need to. They would not be hostile - they would be utterly indifferent to us.
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    Primitivism awaits. Go for it. The greatest fool can ask more than the wisest man can answer.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    You didn't read the article; people are living in tiny wire rabbit cages, sometimes more than one per hutch. The libertarian fetish for Heritage Kong and the other Asian police state is astounding.
  • Glen Allport's picture
    Glen Allport 3 years 19 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    The widespread (and often stunning, yes) mistreatment of animals is a reminder that fostering compassion and emotional health generally are every bit as important as fostering liberty. Neither quality is sufficient on its own.
  • jimmonomoy's picture
    jimmonomoy 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    Hello Jesse -- a wonderful piece. Part of the mystery of "Who will build the roads?," we can now see that the imperialists will. And certainly the state will. The scales began to fall from my eyes when I read 2 revealing works on major transportation sagas, Stephen Ambrose's book on the transcontinental railroad and David McCullough's work on the Panama Canal. These works are not even muckraker's pieces, but the imperialism, political corruption, plutocracy, militarism, and statism are rampant.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Cage dogs of Hong Kong: The tragedy of tens of thousands living in 6ft by 2ft rabbit hutches - in a city with more Louis Vuitton shops than Paris http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084971/Hong-Kongs-cage-homes-Te... Stunning. I know, I know, they're better off than, well something, right?
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    The problem is primitivism. It is pure evil....It is not solving the problem. Someone who is so fixated on their problem of state and cities apparently cannot think outside their Dunbar, Malthus, Empiricism out of touch with reality map.. A Primitivist is not here to teach nor understand. Don't care what the reason is Mommy--Dunbar, Malthus, Empiricism--said so...(Replacing the State with Mommy-ism is not the answer). sTROLLING in the wilderness does not require primitivism. Primitivism is what we came from. Primitivism is old age and dead at 25. I can go modern with a 4 wheel into the wilderness. He can go build his stone ax--that's primitive. Go primitive? Who cares if a primitive wants to go. *Taking us with him is the problem*.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    It was a stone groove, my man! Symphony of Science - 'Our Place in the Cosmos' (ft. Sagan, Dawkins, Kaku, Jastrow) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vioZf4TjoUI A minor aside: the lunacy in the OT doesn't reflect the primitive; Jerusalem and fantasies of streets paved with gold are rather city-Statist.
  • GeoffreyTransom's picture
    GeoffreyTransom 3 years 19 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    I used that set of adjectives because the vast vast VAST majority of the observable universe is cold (near-absolute-zero) and dark (night-sky dark, not 'nuclear bunker with no generators' dark). Those words have a nice embedded double entendre, too: physical vs anthropomorphic emotional-projection. * Hard like a rock, or hard like the 1000-yard stare of a US soldier at a checkpoint in a land that isn't his? * Cold like ice, or cold like the soul of an IDF soldier helping steal land from people who've lived on it for a hundred generations? * Dark like a movie theatre, or dark like the mind of anyone who believes in the primitive racial-supremacist lunacy of the Old Testament? I also think those words accurately reflect the disposition of the universe towards some bunch of self-important naked monkeys on a slightly-interesting ball of rock orbiting a not-special little star in a backwater of a galaxy that is indistinguishable from a hundred billion others. The more we inculcate the 'we are nothing special' view, the better: the human conceit of 'specialness' has caused enough agony and depravity when directed just at our own little mildly-interesting ball of rock and its inhabitants - if we don't get rid of that trope before we blunder out into the stars, we deserve to be extinct. Lastly... when considering the staggeringly tiny bit of the universe that we occupy, you should also consider just how much of it is relatively inhospitable to our poorly-evolved meatbags. Most deserts, a good chunk of any decent-sized mountains, the liquid environment at any depth greater than about 40 feet, the polar regions - all of those places will kill a naked ape in a relatively short period of time. Mother Nature (to personify the natural world for a sec) is indifferent as to whether humanity extincts itself or is extincted by a mutated germ or virus, or a comet, meteor, supernova, or any of the planetary-scale ass-whipping-phenomena; we're about as important in the broad sweep of cosmic history as chlamydia. The thing is, deep down I am perfectly happy with being an insignificant hairless ape whose entire life is less than a blip in the timeline of this tiny little planet, which itself is hurtling through a vast void. We each of us have that nanoscopic sliver of time, sandwiched between eternities of non-existence. Anybody who can't make peace with their insignificance will be shitting bricks, crossing their fingers and hoping for God as their last heartbeat approaches - and that's the ultimate in lacking self-awareness. That said, I am also a utopian extropian who plans on being alive when we get past the knee of our tech development curve... so I will zip up my mind, upload it to a nanobot a few million atoms across, download everything ever written (and know it instantly)... and spend eternity playing Reversi.
  • Glen Allport's picture
    Glen Allport 3 years 19 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    What a great reply! Lots of interesting ideas in your mini-essay, Geoffrey. I feel the same way you do about " . . . the use of the shorthand that conflates a system with the way a system is MODELED . . ." and tried to be clear that everything of an *explanatory* nature in quantum theory is conjecture, and that there are multiple, conflicting views of what might actually be happening, but it's difficult to completely avoid writing in a way that uses such shorthand, because otherwise you get annoying levels of repetition. One of the things that strikes me whenever I read on the topic (including reading your comment above) is that different writers, physicists, and schools of thought see the experimental results in VERY different ways, and in fact often describe the results themselves (of famous experiments) differently. This is true to an extent in every field, I think, but seems to especially characterize physics. Many people in the field have clear and hardened views (Deutch's assertion that "no other known explanation" fits the data than the many-worlds idea, for instance, versus the late John Wheeler's Copenhagen-esq, biocentric view). If there is any *proof* worthy of the term that clearly supports one view over the many others that have been advanced, I haven't seen it. This is true for the "extra dimensions" idea, as well, and for every other bit of explanation in quantum physics that I've seen. You'll find dissenters with solid arguments on every explanatory idea, not to mention the explanations no one has come up with yet -- which might well include the *best* explanation, given that we still can't reconcile quantum theory with relativity theory. I suspect you're right about the "non-hippie wonders that we will uncover" -- interesting times lie ahead.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Why "hard, cold, dark universe" when the part in which we've adapted is warm, soft, and light, and alive? Is warm, soft, light, and alive too hippie-ish? I think such a rigid, frigid description acts more as a mirror than a lens.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    Neocortex size isn't empirical evidence to you... • Dunbar, R.I.M. (1992). Neocortex size as a constraint on group size in primates. Journal of Human Evolution 22 (6): 469–493. • Dunbar, R.I.M. (1993). Coevolution of neocortical size, group size and language in humans. Behavioral and Brain Sciences 16 (4): 681–735. • Sawaguchi, T., & Kudo, H. (1990). Neocortical development and social structure in primates. Primates 31: 283–290. • Kudoa, H., Dunbar, R.I.M. (2001). Neocortex size and social network size in primates. Animal Behaviour 62 (4) 711–722. • Barton, R. A. (1996). Neocortex Size and Behavioural Ecology. Primates Proceedings: Biological Sciences 263 (1367): 173-177. ...but it is to anybody with a couple firing neurons. I did wonder when a neo-con psychopath like Atlas would start-up with the tired ol' "love it or leave it" bromide. In reality, the US Gov't completely obliterated the last vestiges of Non-State sociopolitical typology over 100 years ago. Even the "wilderness" has hoards of big-government Game Wardens and Forest Strangers, as Charlie Brown calls them. (A few folks desperate to live a non-state life have even tried -- and had their kids taken away from their teepee.) And the landbase, flora and fauna are often nearly or completely destroyed. For example, buffalo aren't roaming the plains anymore, since the Capitalists decimated the herd. Maybe you didn't hear. Oh, that's right, hearing and other sensuous observation is evilly "Epiricist" to you. Only pure deductively derived triangle angle dangles for you. P.S. I hope you never read Buckminster Fuller's Synergetics, who eschewed Euclid's lines because they don't describe the way nature actually behaves. But if you find any real-life entity that extends forever like a "line," let me know, OK?
  • GeoffreyTransom's picture
    GeoffreyTransom 3 years 19 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    A pretty good article, but I dislike the use of the shorthand that conflates a system with the way a system is MODELED in pedagogic and research tools. (I've spent a decade post-academe in financial markets, which are full of people who think the 2-asset model is the real world, and that the Solow-Swan model is what the actual macroeconomy looks like). The probabilistic approach (modelling particles as probability densities) dominates quantum theory at present, but in all likelihood it simply reflects incompleteness in the theory rather than something that is genuinely inherent in the physical universe. Likewise, quantum 'entanglement' and action-at-a-distance relies heavily on the idea that physical proximity in R4 (space-time) is a useful proxy for proximity in other dimensions: the idea that other dimensions exist is no longer even at issue (when I first became interested, in the late 1970s, it was HOTLY contested; now it's a question as to how MANY there are). As an example; in R4, 'distance' is meaningful; in the macro world a large change in any co-ordinate renders information-exchange more difficult. So if I am at [X1,Y1,Z1,T1] and you are at [X2,Y2,Z2,T2], then unless ALL FOUR dimensions are 'close' (to within a few metres and seconds) we cannot communicate directly without technology. However consider if R5 is 'red-haired-ness' (call it 'G'); my red-haired-ness is quite low (but non-zero... ginger-beard unless I shave). You might be a full-on bloodnut [G=100], or a Chinaman [G=0] - you could be ANYWHERE on the Ginger spectrum, and the 'gap' between our relative levels of Ginger does not impede almost-instantaneous communication (unless G=100 and the ginger in question has been drinking) if we are proximate in R4. Now consider if R6 is 'literacy' and R7 is 'internet connectivity' (I know these are not akin to 'physical dimensions', but bear with me). If both of us have high R7 and reasonable R6, we can exchange information almost at will across R3 and T (T only in one direction at present) - even if one of us is a drunk Ginger (although as G approaches 100 and D [drunkenness] rises above 60, R6 [literacy] drops sharply). OK... this is already book-length, but bear with me for a few more sentences. If ANY of the 'higher dimensions' enables spacetime-invariant transmission of information (i.e., transmission of information regardless of the interactee's position in R4), THEN quantum entanglement is not even interesting as a concept. It's like asking "How did that fat guy in Australia tell the guy in the US what he thought over such a great distance?", ignoring the cable coming out of the back of my computer. It will become clear as humanity continues to research dark matter (and the even MORE bizarre 'dark energy'), that the constraints we thought we faced in R4 are almost entirely non-binding. The first thing that we will come to understand is that information - having no mass - is not bound by R4 constraints and can change co-ordinates (including bidirectionally in T) without hindrance. One last thing - don't anybody for a minute think I'm getting all 'New Age' in my old age: not a bit of it. But the universe - the hard,. cold, dark universe - has non-hippie wonders that we will uncover that will make late-21st century man look back on early-21st century man, the way we currently look back on societies that had not developed writing.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    No ship's crews, hunting parties, choirs, clubs, or families, right? No "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers." Good lord, no markets either. Dang. Or whale pods, antelope herds, baboon troops, or monkey tribes, or colonies, ant or human. All imagined fantasies, because there are only atomized individuals. Uh oh, there is no you. Only atomized, heroic Cells living selfishly, individually, and randiotionally. (Wait a second, what are the implications of mitochondria having their own DNA?) But Mr. Roark, Ayn Rand's raised eyebrow stares woefully at thee. "A government is an institution that holds the exclusive power to enforce certain rules of social conduct in a given geographical area." ~Ayn Rand Straight-up dictionary definition. And now you know. P.S. I should say, I hope you know. If not, walk around until you find the nearest marketplace. Take off all your clothes, shout at the top of your lungs, or simply stand there for hours. There's nothing like a physical lesson in what government can do to you to make the above definition stick.
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    Dunbar, Malthus and the Empiricist posits are false alternatives. There is NO empirical evidence to support Dunbar. The Covenant of Unanimous Consent, which is for interpersonal relationships (without the need to control others; without the need for space travel (which would require an industrial civilization, which is being destroyed by Govt)) and without the need for a grand kill off. But only self-control. Those that do not take care of themselves--you--will suffer the consequences. There is plenty of wilderness. There are others out there now! If you are unable to go that is your own fault. Laissez faire. Go to it! The 99% won't go quietly into the night. Apparently you are hoping to be part of the 1% taking a BIG Gamble on the hope that they will not defend themselves and that they won't come looking for you....
  • roark1979's picture
    roark1979 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    White Indian, There is no such thing as government. Agriculture produced something to steal.
  • painkilleraz's picture
    painkilleraz 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link painkilleraz
    Ahhh to be able to smoke when we wish :)
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link painkilleraz
    Here's another good one! Don't Step on the Grass Sam And here's the lyrics: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/s/steppenwolf/dont_step_on_the_grass_sa... so you can sing along, if you are so inclined. You've been telling lies so long Some believe they're true So they close their eyes to things You have no right to do Just as soon as you are gone Hope will start to climb Please don't stay around too long You're wasting precious time. tparker393 on Oct 7th 2010 11:34 pm "This song is about how the system (law enforcement and government) use their influence and power to keep marijuana illegal and obscure the truth behind what this 'noble weed' actually is. Further, kay points out that they squander tax money on imprisoning people for smoking bud (you waste my coin sam all you can, to jail my fellow man). Smoking herb is a victimless crime but it's portrayed as something 'evil, wicked, mean and nasty'. What a great song, it was relevant during the time it was written and still is today. Maybe our generation will finally learn how to overcome the lies and manipulation that have plagued the previous ones- we have waited long enough. Thank you steppenwolf for writing this beautiful and truthful song."
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link painkilleraz
    Ro-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-ol-l-l-l-l-l-l another one... "But that's after exposure to more than 10 "joint-years," which the scientists calculated as a joint a day for a decade. That's a fair amount of weed." ROFLMAO Those 'scientists' do not have a clue!! Does anyone who is currently smoking, or who has ever smoked mary jane, know anyone who smokes/smoked only one joint a day for a decade? A day, one fricken joint a day? ROFLMAO again!! "That's a fair amount of weed." ROFLMAO all over again!! Not that I would have first-hand knowledge, now mind you, but that is DEFINITELY NOT a "fair amount of weed". Somebody's been bogarting. (Years ago I dated a girl who babysat some of Joe's children.)
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    You cite nothing; you fail the challenge. Being that "War is a staple of civilization" (Zerzan, 1005) I have stated that I think nuclear war over dwindling resources is nearly inevitable, and so do many others, (Moore, 2007; and would put us back in the Stone Age, and that having some "re-wild skills in your back pocket" is a wise preparation. You then lied and said I advocated nuclear war to wipe out the population of the earth. You must think your lies now have automatically become as axiomatic as triangle angles. You, Atlas, are an intellectual fraud. • You evade that I have written at great length about how to AVOID people dying as agricultural civilization comes to another collapse. One fellow I mentioned, John Jeavons, has proven and demonstrated for years a human diet can be gown in 1000 sq. ft. • You evade the simple fact that all agricultural civilizations collapse; ours is in the process now. People can AVOID tragedy by learning horticultural-permaculture-biointensive gardening methods. • You evade the fact that altruism, egalitarianism, and empathy are aspects of biological evolution—millions of years before the State came along; they in no way equal the forced "we-ism" of agricultural city-Statism, as you keep falsely purporting. • You evade that the State is an integral and inseparable aspect of agricultural city-Statism (civilization) and have failed to provide a single example otherwise. • You make pronouncements about the real world, then hide behind your "a priori" triangles dogma like a fundamentalist clinging to his Inspired Scriptures, evading real life observation of the real world. It's time you checked your premises. __________________ Zerzan, John (2005) On the Origins of War. http://www.scribd.com/doc/20298938/Zerzan-The-Origins-of-War Moore, Carol (2007) IS WORLD NUCLEAR WAR INEVITABLE? http://carolmoore.net/nuclearwar/ Hellman, Martin (1985) On the Probability of Nuclear War http://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/opinion/inevitability.html Jeavons, John (2006) How to Grow More Vegetables, (and fruit, nuts, berries, grains and other crops) Than You Ever Thought Possible On Less Land Than You Can Imagine http://www.bountifulgardens.org/
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    I got this from your own posts. If you don't recognize your own drivel you need to go back and read your own posts.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    I challenge you to cite anything I said close to your lies. Put up or shut up, Atlas. Funny how you blank-out Ayn "Pol Pot" Rand's talk about deliberately killing-off de-humanized "parasites" and "lice." (Some of Rand's favorite words.) Tyrants do that sort of stuff. Dehumanize, and then sanitize. Her written fantasies of philosophically undesirables dying horrible deaths is a logical exhibition of the inspiration of her novels — William Hickman, a cold-blooded serial child killer and dismemberer. Even the usual dense-headed conservatives used to have her figured out, before they too began embracing her misanthropy. "From almost any page of Atlas Shrugged, a voice can be heard, from painful necessity, commanding: “To a gas chamber — go!” The same inflexibly self-righteous stance results, too..." ~Whittaker Chambers Big Sister Is Watching You From the Dec. 28, 1957, issue of NR. http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/222482/big-sister-watching-you/fl... The reality is, altruism is observed across the animal kingdom, including humans. Weird how it hasn't wiped out whole species after millions of years, eh? Maybe Ayn should have checked her premises? I guess not if you have a novel to sell. The following essay has an array of articles and texts referenced—based on observed (empirical) reality, not fevered ideology—which Atlas must desperately evade to cling to his religio-economic faith. Biological Altruism Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/ Altruism, and nearly everything else good in humans, does become a toxic mimicry of 2 million years human evolution as egalitarian Non-State social band animals who lived as "autonomous and sovereign" individuals "who bowed to no external political leaders." (Service, 1975) Agricultural city-Statism forces people into Mass Society, yet Atlas and Ayn were all for city-Statism (civilization.) Care to address this contradiction of supposedly being against the state but all for City-Statism, Atlas?
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    ~According to our resident Altruist: What "We" need is to be freed of the inhabitants of the World in accordance with the premises of Dunbar, Malthus and the Science of Empiricism. Ask yourself dear reader, is that really what you need? ~What is self-evident (at least to me on immediate inspection)--Gak--is that the primitivist's data driven ideas are the megalomania ravings of a Sociopath righteously demanding indulgence, acceptance and the sanction of death on a Global Scale for the good of his "We" who--then and only then--will be free to gambol in the forest undisturbed... ~The non-sacrificial ideas of Rand, Mises AND Thoreau--are hardly abandoned in "Atlas Shrugged". They are hardly abandoned here (nor LewRockwell.com or Mises.org). Indeed as their students Linda and Morris Tannehill point out in "The Market For Liberty": "If revolution comes by violence, and in advance of the light, the old struggle will have to be begun again".
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Don Stacy
    Do you find anything natural about a city? Artificial sweeteners? Artificial insemination? (Is it ok to drink milk from cows, 99% of whom are artificially inseminated?) Symbolic thinking? Pseudoephedrine? This Natural Law stuff intrigues me.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    In many ways, agricultural civilization is like being an alcoholic. First, alcohol for ritual and social control is likely the very reason for domesticating grain. Lots of fun promised ahead! Where's the car keys? Euphoria! Second, the results are similar. Much of the world is now wrecked. The vast cedar forests of Mesopotamia? Yeah, that's the Iraqi desert now. Oak forests in the Sinai and Saudi peninsulas and the Negev desert? Burned down to smelt copper.* Yay, that was fun while it lasted. Civilization is like a 10,000 year bender with all the abuse and destruction and denialists and enablers. Derrick Jensen writes eloquently about the abusive nature of city-Statist Culture. Premise Nineteen: The culture’s problem lies above all in the belief that controlling and abusing the natural world is justifiable. http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/1-Premises.htm Drive safely, man. ________________ * Even the Sinai which is located to the Southeast and the Negev, East of the present state of Israel, bear evidence of past, perhaps abundant forests. The 1960 investigations of Sir William Flinders Petrie into mining operations in the Wadi Nash area of the western Sinai desert, believed to date from the third millennium, BC, yielded unmistakable clues: "(Petrie) found a bed of wood ashes 100 feet long, 50 feet wide and 18 inches deep, and also a slag dump from copper smelting, 6-8 feet deep, 500 feet long and 300 feet wide. It seems that the adjacent area, now desert, must have borne combustibles during the period when the mines were operating. Similarly, in the Negev, copper smelting kilns of a highly developed kind dating from 1000 BC have been found in the now quite desert-like Wadhi Araba." Man and the Mediterranean Forest: A history of resource depletion. J. V. Thirgood. Academic Press. 1961. p. 57. quoted from chapter 4 of: THE FINAL EMPIRE: THE COLLAPSE OF CIVILIZATION AND THE SEED OF THE FUTURE by William H. Kötke http://www.rainbowbody.net/Finalempire/
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Don Stacy
    That is correct, Lawrence M. Ludlow, "marriages are things undertaken in nature by consenting beings", LONG BEFORE the existence of states. As you, and most people here probably know, I have no 'reverence' of any states. The only "just powers" of de jure (rightful) governments, (or whatever one wishes to call such an entity), is to protect its consenting members' natural rights. Same-sex marriage is unnatural. Quick definitions from WordNet (unnatural) ▸ adjective: not in accordance with or determined by nature; contrary to nature With no intention of being judgmental, or offending anyone here, "same-sex marriage" is, logically, "contrary to [the] nature" of man, just as the union of two nuts, or the union of two bolts, is, logically, "contrary to [the] nature" of nuts and bolts", while "different-sex marriage", is, logically, in harmony with the nature of man, just as the union of a nut and bolt is, logically, in harmony with the nature of nuts and bolts. So,what is the main reason that individuals would vote to have their unnatural same-sex marriage "legally recognized"? You got it, so the unnatural STATE will give them the same entitlements attached to natural different-sex marriages.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Don Stacy
    I agree; I was just dinging him on his White Man's Ghost Dance, today including Latin, that somehow insulated him from city-Statist society and protects him from cop bullets. He's a part of the present agricultural city-Statism (civilization) society whether he wants to be or not. Civilization isn't much of a voluntary society; never has been, never will be. I sympathize with his plight, and I know it drives many people crazy, but crazy delusional thinking does get you killed. You and me, we're in this thing together now... We're In This Together - NIN http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9BfvPjsXXw We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine. And the machine is bleeding to death. The Dead Flag Blues - Godspeed You! Black Emperor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS2BrxcWWZA
  • Samarami's picture
    Samarami 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    Jesse, this is an excellent treatment of Manifest Destiny (which gave rise to a strange drumbeat called "American Exceptionalism"). Yes, if I were able to forgo all "civilization" today I would. I would prefer traveling in the woods, living by my own hand, and without any interference from others. Very likely I would be as he, I appreciate the positive nod. Thank you as always for the great comments! I got in deep trouble drinking in Texas in the 60's. James Michener once wrote a line something like, "...Texas is lavish with her successes, brutal with her failures..." I was able to buy a small farm in Iowa (thanks to the late Harold Hughes, then US Senator from Iowa, who underwrote my court review. Predators of state ain't all bad when you need 'em to attack predators of neighboring states on your behalf. Right?). My family and I snuck across the Red River with Texas coyotes nipping at our tails. My dream was a family organic farm (before organics were cool) where the children could learn and help, but my 7th child came along in 1973, forcing me to rent out the cropland to big row crop farmers. I had to forgo my dream for reality. It was necessary for me to earn federal reserve notes to keep the ship afloat. White Indian is absolutely right. I sometimes feel he keeps hammering away at the same old nail, but his philosophy is accurate as to the facts. But I am here, and it is now. I remember a frame on the wall of one of the rehab units I used to frequent so regularly: I am where I am I know where I could have been Had I done what I did not do. Tell me, friend -- What can I do today To be where I want to be Tomorrow. Just got called to go truckin', so will leave it there. Sam
  • Lawrence M. Ludlow's picture
    Lawrence M. Ludlow 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Don Stacy
    I believe that Suverans2's statement is an indication NOT of his reverence for the oppression of ancient Rome, which was the evil empire of its day and the destroyer of and parasite upon Mediterranean civilization and trade. It is, instead, a reiteration that marriages are things undertaken in nature by consenting beings BEFORE the existence of the state -- or so I hope. That the evil and barbarous Romans recognized this in the statement above (despite fencing it in everywhere else as our own evil government does) does not, I hope, indicate any reverence for the evil Roman state.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Don Stacy
    One more time. Conjunctio mariti et faeminae est de jure naturae. The union of a man and a woman is of the law of nature. Unless, of course you choose to be, or remain, a member of a political corporation, (either out of fear, or to be eligible for its entitlements, the latter being the most common reason), and then you must conform to its "law" on 'marriage', in order to get the entitlements associated with 'marriage'. For those with even a modicum of common sense, this should be easy to understand. gfywi Consensus non concubitus facit nuptiam. Consent, not lying together, constitutes marriage.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    How can liberty be work? Paleolithic people in the Original Affluent Society (Sahlins, 1974) were "autonomous and sovereign" individuals "who bow to no external political leaders" (Service, 1975) and they were quite lazy. "The redskinned Indians are naturally lazy..." ~Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdes, 16th century In Praise of Laziness by Jason Godesky | 5 June 2007 http://rewild.info/anthropik/2007/06/in-praise-of-laziness/ The Abolition of Work Bob Black http://www.primitivism.com/abolition.htm The Idle Theory of evolution, human life, technology, trade, money, ethics, law, and religion, proposes that life does the least work it can. http://idletheory.info/
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Don Stacy
    You're a member of that political corporation, and you conform to many of its rules. Any dispassionate observer would note how much you submit to it; to say you don't is pure evasion. Go ahead, disprove me wrong by openly growing and selling marijuana or raw milk off your front porch. Let me know how quoting Black's Law Dictionary works for you when the cops show up. Like Bob Black* says, "believing you are invulnerable to bullets puts you in more, not less, danger of being shot." But thanks for your lesson in Latin Legal Liturgy. It's another common behavior of those gyrating to the White Man's Ghost Dance. ____________________________ *"CONSTITUTIONALISM": THE WHITE MAN'S GHOST DANCE by Robert C. Black http://www.spunk.org/texts/writers/black/sp001650.html
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    If you want to study triangles, you should stay with in the realm of triangle axioms. When you start positing claims that can be checked in the real world, only an intellectual fraud would claim something provably false was somehow "a priori" knowledge. When Mises states: "The natural condition of man is extreme poverty and insecurity....Primitive man was always haunted by the specter of death from starvation," he's parroting the falsehoods of Hobbes. By observation, anthropologists, archeologists, evolutionary biologists, medical historians, etc. have all debunked such Hobbesian lies created to apologize for the oppressive hierarchy of city-Statism (civilization.) Then you further your intellectual fraud by trying to abandon those you were defending just, what, yesterday? Do you think I'm as stupid as you? Not hardly, pilgrim. You're the only one who keeps talking about culling -- because you're hiding the fact that you want to cull the "parasite" sub-humans who aren't followers of your Totalitarian Capitalist ideology that you falsely posit as "free." And then you'll commit the intellectual fraud of calling genocide "self-defense." You'll cook up some fraudulent excuse how they "deserved it." In fact, you buddy here already said that in his Totalitarian Capitalism, those without enough money deservedly "starve to death." Yep, that's what he said. "Starve to death," with nary a shred of human empathy. Oh right, to you, evolutionary biologists are as evil as they are to Fundamentalist Biblical Literalists. Humans are created in your a priori image! There can be no observable data, across many species, about behavior that demonstrates morals and empathy and altruism, because you don't want it to be! And those intellectual smarty-pants who are smart enough to observe such, well, they're just parasites to you, right? Send them to hell to burn forever and ever, amen! Maybe that's too silly these days, let's try a different rationalized tack: "“Sweep aside those parasites of subsidized classrooms, who live on the profits of the mind of others and proclaim that man needs no morality, no values, no code of behavior!" ~Ayn Rand There's your Fundamentalist Preacher who , and you sound just like it: an intellectual fraud. A fraud who wants people to ignore their senses, their powers of observation, in favor of believing your ideology about the real world is as axiomatic your simple-minded triangles.
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    Those who cleave to data charts--the thing between their shoulders--assume that I cleave similarly but I shrugged (long ago....) Some call it "shrieking" and just follow the "leader", but really that says more about them than I ever could... It's not necessary for me to take my protractor and check the internal angles of a triangle. They are 180 degrees. Some say to hell with logic but again that says more about their premises than I ever could or would want to... Logic vs Empiricism--opens up a world that separates Mises from Keynes (Krugman). And yet in many ways Rand, presaged Mises because she wrote about what she had yet to become and did not have to wait for her students to go full tilt into the realm of self-rule... Got blame? Take it up with Lincoln and Sherman (DiLorenzo had not written "The Real Lincoln" in her time. Holding her responsible for something a certain poster here missed himself says volumes more than I ever could... Me? I'm not a Misean nor Ran-dian nor Anarchist. I am "Indomitus" and I cannot even use the word "system" as it relates to freedom because there is no system for freedom...another posting already... I cannot free the UNFree. They must find their own way. I have gleaned some fine ideas that I have made my own (some can misconstrue this, let them take my auto-didactism and chart its course and miss the point)! The primitives posit that a culling of the "We" must take place before they can be free. They would love to be a war profiteer--so the data chartist premise--but logically and morally it is much more important to ensure you and I dear reader don’t become casualties of such...
  • Paul's picture
    Paul 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/39185824/The-Not-So-Wild-Wild-West
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    Claims of "a priori" are a fraud when a premise can be checked against empirical data. That's what I keep telling you; your religio-economic priesthood keeps spouting premises that are easily debunked. You're just trying to weasel, equivalent to a fundamentalist claiming divine inspiration for his scriptures. If Mises states that fresh water freezes at 28 degrees, and one empirically checks his statement and finds it doesn't, then only an intellectual fraud would try an end-run around reality and claim such a person is a positivist (he may or he may not be, it matters not) to deflect the the reality that the premise is checkable against empirical data. An honest man would admit his mistake. Not an economist though! Economists probably shouldn't be making "a priori" statements that are checkable against empirical data if they want to stay in the realm of "a priori" deductive thinking. But Mises and Rand and Rothbard made many such statements, easily checkable. They were flat-out wrong. You won't admit it, because truth doesn't matter to you; protecting your religio-economic dogma does. You won't even follow your Dear Leader's advice to "check your premises."
  • Samarami's picture
    Samarami 3 years 19 weeks ago
    Where's the State?
    Page Jim Davies
    This guy needs a drink. Sounds as if he's trying to sober up. Can't have that. Sam
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    Perhaps the most distinctive feature of the economics of Ludwig von Mises is his insistence on the a priori approach. For Mises, economic "laws" must be logically deduced from antecedent axioms, so that—assuming the initial assumptions are true—the conclusions reached are just as valid as any result in Euclidean geometry. This stands in sharp contrast to the method of the positivists, a camp that includes most of today's practicing economists and a certain resident empiricist and primitivist. In their opinion, economics can only be "scientific" if it adopts the procedures used by the natural scientists. Roughly, the positivists--such as Krugman and Keynes--feel that economists should form hypotheses with testable implications, and then collect data to measure the accuracy of their predictions. "The necessary result of the adoption of this *empiricist* epistemological and methodological model was that social scientists would always be behind the curve of any emerging social phenomenon." http://direct.mises.org/daily/4529/Gathering-Data-while-Washington-Burns
  • Peter McCandless's picture
    Peter McCandless 3 years 19 weeks ago
    Stupidity Reigns
    Page Paul Hein
    Those that think we can solve the economic woes in this country and elsewhere by printing money (so-called economic "stimuli") might think we can solve a shortage of doctors by simply handing out more medical diplomas. In other words the stupidity to which Hein elequently refers is not restricted to the topic of money. Parents tell their kids all time, "You need to bring up your grade in X." Rarely do they say (and one wonders if any many mean it), "you need to learn more" and the student's grade will then reflect that (assuming the grade is actually a measure of learning and not just attendance or "busy work"). We live in a society where the symbol standing for something is confused with the something for which it stands, be that "something" money, learning, or even love.
  • painkilleraz's picture
    painkilleraz 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    In context its always so much clearer, he had a valid point in many ways. I will be the first to say that liberty, true liberty consists of hard labor. It is neither easy nor is it a holiday, in fact when discussing this with minarchists or monarchists I find it necessary to consistently dismantle the idea that by wanting absolute liberty I am in some way desiring to be a lazy cad. :)
  • painkilleraz's picture
    painkilleraz 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    well said, and will do thank you!
  • Jim Davies's picture
    Jim Davies 3 years 19 weeks ago
    Where's the State?
    Page Jim Davies
    Scott, I tried to answer those very questions in the first few paragraphs of the article. Can't improve on them. Worth a re-read?
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    "The life of an Indian is a continual holiday, compared with the poor of Europe; and, on the other hand it appears to be abject when compared to the rich." ~ Thomas Paine
  • painkilleraz's picture
    painkilleraz 3 years 19 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    Dkiller88 True, and unfortunately I noticed that after it had gone to print, Wild Bill was part of the Show for a bit, he did not in fact start the show- WhiteIndian I would say that the meme regarding Indians lives are incorrect. They worked very hard, sure they didnt have televisions and more, but they worked constantly and regularly or they starved. It was not until we caged them on reservations that they became "lazy" and were on "holiday." As for the "huge pile of skulls" I wont disagree, though you will find that those "massacres" and the indian holocaust were a direct result of STATE intervention. And btw that is the focus of my third part of the series, (Liberty-) the first two parts seen here on Strike-The-Root -
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    You're still bent out of shape because simple observation in the real world debunks your make-believe premises. Which makes Paul Krugman pretty much like you: another agricultural city-Statism (civilization) swindler. So, you continue to lie to cover up your evasion of empirical data. (Hardly surprising from your hustlin' type.) I've said several times that I do not advocate "going back to primitivism" because it is impossible to do. But the critique of civilization against 2 million years of our primitive ancestors' Original Affluent Society (Sahlins, 1974) still stands true as ever. If you dare to not evade reality. And your dear leader, Ayn "Pol Pot" Rand was the one who dreamed of eliminating most people on earth. Oh wait, she dehumanized them like all genocidal tyrants do into mere "parasites." They're not people at all; just parasites, Objectivistly rationalized. "Sweep aside those parasites..." Yeah, Pol Pot sounded pretty much the same, and his goal was "restarting civilization" at "year Zero." Maybe Pol Pot read Ayn Rand? She had the same murderous fantasy: blow the whole thing up and start over. That's what Atlas Shrugged is all about, a Mathusian novel to get the earth's population back to its Objectivist carrying capacity. So let's compare these two batshit crazy kooks: Pol Pot wanted to: 
(a) "restart civilization"
 (b) by cleansing civilization of liberal influences
 (c)and punishing and starving out people he regarded as subhumans 
(d) at Year Zero. Ayn Rand wanted also to:
 (a) restart civilization 
(b) by cleansing civilization of liberal influences 
(c) and punishing and starving out people she regarded as subhumans 
(d) with a wave of the dollar brand cigarette. Not much difference. But what else would you expect from a philosophical movement inspired by a serial child killer?
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Melinda L. Secor
    The biggest laughs of them all come from Paul Krugman of the New York Times. Krugman, as anyone with a functioning cerebrum knows, is nothing but a court jester or sideshow act of the collapse. Insane, Homeless Man Finds Suit in Trash. He looks like an insane, homeless man. And, I realize I just insulted insane, homeless men around the world. Adding to the laugh factor, everything he says sounds like what an insane, homeless man would say! It’s hard to know where to even begin with him. And yet Paul Krugman most resembles a certain resident data modeling empiricist/positivist on this site with his primitivist teachers. Gak! With all their attendant problems that they model so well. Hardly in the same camp with those Miseans who show how logic trumps both statistics and its spurious conclusions and patterns. I think Tom Woods asks The Right Question--and certainly the most logical--and that he comes to the right conclusions and solutions (hint it's not more of the same insanity that got us into this mess nor does it require the culling of the masses before some backward-looking failures can practice their primitivists ways). But don't take my word for it. Check out the posts above, Dear Reader...
  • KenK's picture
    KenK 3 years 19 weeks ago Web link Jad Davis
    They busted into his house when he was asleep just because he had a few cannabis plants? The cops brought this on themselves.